There Is No Such Thing As Valid Prophecy

[RedEye]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

[RedEye]

You were constrained to a Chai Latte

By what mechanism were you constrained?

The mechanism is the deterministic nature of such a universe (where the future can be known for certain). You were constrained by the fact that you could have made no other choice (no matter how free you thought that your choice was). Think of it like being in a film. The characters in the film may think that are making free choices at every step. However the actors playing those characters are constrained by the script that they are following and the director's instructions. You are a film character who is having a Chai Latte but it is was always in the script that you would drink a Chai Latte. It doesn't matter if the choice appears to be free to the viewer.

[RedEye]

To take the biblical example of Cain and Abel. Cain carried a murderous hatred for his brother Abel. God could see the "picture" of exactly what would happen if Cain didn't change his attitude. But God told Cain that he (Cain) himself could change that future, wipe it out and make an alternative if he (Cain) removed the jealouse hatred from his heart. Of course God could also look to see if he took the advices or not, but the point about free will is demonstrated, what was in Cains future depended entirely on Cain.

I don't think that we have a problem then. You have chosen free will over valid Biblical prophecy. You agree that free will rules out valid prophecy of the kind I am talking about. Excellent. That's one vote for free will over prophecy.

It's strange though to see a JW arguing against Biblical prophecy. Wasn't your sect absolutely certain that Jesus was coming back 5 or 6 times last century? The dates came and went and Jesus was a no-show. That must have been so embarrassing. Anyway, I guess that was more of a promise by Jesus rather than a prophecy. Given your stance on the fluidity of the future, you must believe that Jesus may never show up at all. We just can't know. He could have changed his mind. Right?

[JehovahsWitness]

Think of it like being in a film. The characters in the film may think that are making free choices at every step. However the actors playing those characters are constrained by the script that they are following and the director's instructions.

Okay so what would constitute "The script" ? Don't just say "the future" a vague abstract notion of time, if God is the director and we are the actors, what is the script ie what is the mechanism by which humans are obliged to choose A rather than B?

In a film, their words and actions are controlled by the authority as it is happening. Ii is not some vague philosophical theory of the nature of time, they have to say what they have been told: In real time, in the present. The Director is controlling their present in order to ensure a particular outcome. What is the equivalent in real life, real time mind control? God is controlling our limbs?

Please explain what you believe because that sounds like good old-fashioned Calvinism to me.


JW

[ttruscott]

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

Since I accept that the result of a true free will decison is NOT known before it is created by the person and
since it is clearly written that our lives and experiences are indeed predetermined and
since it is also written that as sinners we are enslaved by the addictive power of sin, that is, our free will is abrogated by our addiction,
I contend that there is no free will here on earth for mankind until rebirth.

But I was only able to arrive at this interpretation after finding the interpretation that we lived pre-earth without sin so with a true free will, not just the feeling that our will is free. The free will of the creature is an absolute necessity for GOD to achieve HIS purpose of a heavenly marriage based upon love as both true love and a real marriage cannot be forced upon us without our true agreement or acceptance of the proposal. That our sinfulness and predetermined lives shows the end of our free will if actually believed, then it is also probable that as we are reborn as a new person and our sinfulness is changed for holiness, that our wills, being freed from its addiction, is again a free will and we start to live undetermined lives again as we choose.

Why did I decide that some of the understanding about GOD's attributes have been gotten wrong? IF GOD knew all things from eternity past to eternity future, (as our so called Church Fathers accepted from Greek wisdom) HE supposedly knew from before they were created who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY! Though I had no alternative to accepting this it never sat well with me and I never accepted it as a mystery but as a fault in our understanding but no correction was available to me.

Then I had my eyes opened to Acts 15:18 which can be understood to say that GOD only knows that which HE has created and only since the creation of things. This implies that if HE did not create the results of our true free will decisions then HE would not know what those results were until we created them by our deciding what they were.

Thus I came to accept that our fates, our place in eternity, was self chosen by our free will before the creation of the physical universe but since the fall when we chose to be sinful in HIS sight, we live predetermined lives perfectly suited to ensure our coming back to HIM. WE chose our FATES; we chose our SIN, but HE chose and determined our LIVES to make us heaven ready again. There is no need to believe this blasphemy of the false understanding of HIS being all knowing any longer even though it is one of the foundations of orthodoxy.

So that's how I answer your conundrum...there is none. When our free will was imperative, we had it. When our free will was abrogated by our choice to sin so HE predetermined our lives, prophecy was an easy way to get our attention, open our eyes to HIM and start our journey back home.

A focus on our earthly lives as of utmost importance over an unreal spiritual life is the cause of the mistaken take on this issue.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true.

This is belief based since any claim of prophesy being fulfilled requires evidence, and such evidence is not actually available. Only hearsay statements are tabled. That is why faith is such an important ingredient in relation to supposed prophesy.

So the claim that the religion is true, is a faith-based declaration rather than an evidence based one, which is the first observation one examining the evidence must acknowledge.

Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

Ignoring the fact only makes for an interesting mental game likened to one stirring the embers of an all but dead fire just to make a few sparks appear and produce a tiny bit of heat from the friction.

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

I can't see where the idea of prophecy is legitimate, as there has been no evidence to support such.

The idea that there is an all knowing GOD will suffice, and is the better example to use.

Also what has not been clearly established is the idea of free will being an absolute. At best it is relative. Occasionally the subject pops up on the forum, but it has never been clearly shown that free will actually exists in the first place.

About the idea of 'Free Will"...

Does the word 'free' add unnecessary confusion to the debate

In relation to biblical referencing, is the concept 'free will' to be found within its pages, or is it only ever about the will? I ask this because it is often the case that 'free will' comes into the argument from Christians as if it were relevant and essential to truth, but are they taking liberties in arguing for something they call 'free will' when such does not actually exist, and why argue 'free will' if 'will' would suffice?

My position on the OP subject is that there is no such valid thing as prophesy OR free will.

However, in relation to the idea of a creator being (GOD) who is all knowing... and the will of the individual, I would have to say that the argument for being within the experience of a predetermined setting is valid.

In relation to most Christian belief systems, the creator being displays as monstrous due mainly to the inability of said idea of that creator to be able to use eternity and infinity effectively to ensure that the eventual outcome is victim-less, because of the notion of everlasting hell and damnation.

The idea of an all knowing GOD coupled with the idea of an all loving GOD essentially would mean that such a creator would not have proceeded with the creation of this or any other universe, nor the placement of consciousness within it/them, if the GOD had foreseen there could be no eventual victim-less outcome somewhere along eternities road.

The idea of 'free will' in relation to eternal hell as being that which determines the righteousness of such a punishment is a convoluted attempt at maintaining fear based faithfulness in the overall idol which is organised religion and the image of that idea of GOD is false. The reliance of the notion of free-will being conflated with relative will is one cornerstone - perhaps even the keystone - of these branches of organised religions.

Not to say that heavens and hells do not exist, but that these are more the creations of the individuals experiencing them and are impermanent, even that some of the experiences might last a very long time.

Simulations within simulations...

[amortalman]

The issue is that if he can see the future perfectly then that future is predetermined.

I think what you are doing is taking power away from omniscient God by claiming that he is unable to make future predictions without that future having been predetermined. If you are going to argue against the effectiveness of Biblical prophecy you must also argue against the attributes of the God who made them.

[ttruscott]

About the idea of 'Free Will"...

Does the word 'free' add unnecessary confusion to the debate

In relation to biblical referencing, is the concept 'free will' to be found within its pages, or is it only ever about the will? I ask this because it is often the case that 'free will' comes into the argument from Christians as if it were relevant and essential to truth, but are they taking liberties in arguing for something they call 'free will' when such does not actually exist, and why argue 'free will' if 'will' would suffice?

Our will power is our ability to make a decison, but the word doesn't discriminate between a decision we are forced to make, or make because we are hypnotized or make because we have been lied to...all these decisions are created by our will.

A free will is free from any influence that we can't resist and forces us to choose one way and not another by a restriction or mental / physical force. An influence can be considered and ignored or followed; a coercion must be followed...and a free will decision cannot be so coerced.

I know discounting free as meaningful is your pet pov but it does not make the grade; a coerced decision is not under the control of the person deciding...the person is not free to choose what they want or might want which is very meaningful when talking about people making bad decisions and punishing them for them.

[RedEye]

Think of it like being in a film. The characters in the film may think that are making free choices at every step. However the actors playing those characters are constrained by the script that they are following and the director's instructions.

Okay so what would constitute "The script" ? Don't just say "the future" a vague abstract notion of time, if God is the director and we are the actors, what is the script ie what is the mechanism by which humans are obliged to choose A rather than B?

See post #22. We no longer have a disagreement.

[RedEye]

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

Since I accept that the result of a true free will decison is NOT known before it is created by the person and since it is clearly written that our lives and experiences are indeed predetermined and since it is also written that as sinners we are enslaved by the addictive power of sin, that is, our free will is abrogated by our addiction, I contend that there is no free will here on earth for mankind until rebirth.

Okay, so that is a vote against free will. (I should have run a poll to keep score).

[RedEye]

The issue is that if he can see the future perfectly then that future is predetermined.

I think what you are doing is taking power away from omniscient God by claiming that he is unable to make future predictions without that future having been predetermined. If you are going to argue against the effectiveness of Biblical prophecy you must also argue against the attributes of the God who made them.

Not at all. Determinism is a logical consequence of valid divine prophecy. It has nothing to do with God having or lacking sufficient power. Unless you are arguing that God is not constrained by logic (can he create a square circle?) there is no problem.