Democracy is Unbiblical

[StuartJ]

In the biblical folklore, some of the millions of folks in the mixed multitude wandering in the wilderness objected to the dictatorship of Moses and his sidekick Aaron:

They gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and Yahweh is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of Yahweh?

The probably fictional Moses and the sidekick he would later defrock, were none too pleased.

But the definitely fictional Yahweh had it sorted:

And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
And there came out a fire from Yahweh, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

So, there we have it ... Yahweh wants HIS chosen dictator to be running the show in HIS name ...

And he'll have the earth swallow those with notions of democracy.

(I can't see how you can possibly read philosophy, or poetry, or love into this nasty little tale either, BTW. It looks like more human politics to me.)

And for centuries, Christian popes were sure that THEY should be ruling the world in Jesus' mighty name ... but only until he comes back with more fire and hail mixed with blood.

So, should we set Pope Francis, or Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson (a woman would NEVER do) or some other senior white male over us as Theocrat ... as the "Word of God" quite clearly intends ...?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 36 by JehovahsWitness]

But Jesus promised "The meek shall inherit the earth. So...

JESUS RETURNS
Soon Jesus will return. He will kill all bad people.

Murderous death cult confirmed. Well...almost. Theologically speaking, they're only one step removed from Daesh, who at least are willing to get their own hands dirty. This cult wants their god to do all the killing for them.

After all the bad people are dead

Somehow, the JWs don't look in the mirror. If any other person from any other group described how paradise would be ushered in with the slaughter of millions, billions of people, JWs would be aghast I'm sure, and call that person a monster, or a follower of a monster.

his people (subjects of the government) will more or less keep doing what they are ALREADY doing.

One would think an apocalypse would change things but I guess not...

The only people that don't know, don't want to know or don't believe all this will be dead anyway so there will be no need to convince them, (because they will be dead).

Am I the only one who hears a not so subtle hidden glee at the thought of this?

Humble people who didn't get a chance to learn would have just seen every other human religion institution and organization destroyed by Jesus and his angels and every individual that didn't submit to the direction coming from this one surviving religion as expressed through its leadership killed. How much convincing do you think they will then need as to who is being used by God?

What JW says here sounds like every other conqueror throughout history, who sought to impose their rule, who thought might makes right.
With writings like this, I'm half-convinced JWs are hatching a plot, a conspiracy, overthrow secular governments.

[NervyGuy]

JESUS RETURNS... Soon Jesus will return. He will kill all bad people.

Oh, my. I had no idea the JWs were as brutal-sounding as that. Is this the official stance of the Jehovah Witnesses -- that "all bad people" will be killed by Jesus?

Forgive me saying so but I find that to be a simplistic view of language and people. To believe that there are 'bad people' and 'good people'... that is not a conception held by those who have thought deeply about life and people. Not in my experience.

May I cut to the chase and ask this: Do you believe, in your heart of hearts, that "good people" = JWs? And "bad people" = non-JWs? Is that how you sort them out? Or is there some other way?

Anyway, the Jesus of my conception is not a murderer and certainly doesn't hold such a simple view of people as you seem to propose here.

But thanks for answering.

HIS PEOPLE AND HIS REPS ARE ALREADY HERE Those who are already his subjects are already all in one religion.

Sure. And I'm guessing that is your religion, yes?

I can see how it would make you happy to think of it that way.

They are not scattered across different denominations, they are not reading their bibles at home and letting God rule their hearts, they are not "internet Christians" that go to church from time to time, and they know better than to claim they "...dont need to be part of an organized religion to worship God" ...they are all presently in ONE RELIGION.

OK. But I can't tell you how you are making me think about the JW religion. Nothing personal. I just find myself feeling happy that your vision of the future will never happen. Not in my reality, I mean.

(Remember all his subjects are all in one united global religion).

That's a fine personal belief. I don't share it, but we all have our opinions.

Humble people who didn't get a chance to learn would have just seen every other human religion institution and organization destroyed by Jesus and his angels and every individual that didn't submit to the direction coming from this one surviving religion as expressed through its leadership killed.

I've always thought of JWs as peaceful folk. It is good you are showing me what some of you are feeling.

Does that help?

It helps me remember why I don't embrace any particular faith. I'm sorry if that was not your intent, but that has been the effect of reading your message.

[NervyGuy]

I have a church meeting now so I have to go, please click on my INDEX just below and find the relevant question (example go to B - for bible and look for what I have already written on interpretation). If you have any furthrr questions after reading I'll be happy to answer them but please read at least a little first.

Thanks, but I come here for dialogue -- not to run off researching what the other guy might believe about things.

But if you'd ever like to discuss how and why you see the Bible as you do, I'll be happy to listen.

[JehovahsWitness]

JESUS RETURNS... Soon Jesus will return. He will kill all bad people.

Is this the official stance of the Jehovah Witnesses -- that "all bad people" will be killed by Jesus?

Michael/Jesus FIGHTS (destruction of the wicked)




My bad I should have referenced our official JW documentation on the subject so I will do so now in this post . See below

PROVERBS 2:22
As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

MATTHEW 25: 31-32, 41, 46

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, .. Then he will say to those on his left: Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. These will depart into everlasting cutting-off...

MATTHEW 24:37-39

For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they took no note until, the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be

PSALMS 37:10, 11
Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

2 PETER 2:9

... unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment

REVELATION 19:11-13

He judges and carries on war in righteousness .... and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. .

ISAIAH 11:4

He will .... put the wicked to death with the breath of his lips.

PSALMS 2: 6, 9

I myself have installed my king ...and I will give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, And you will smash them like a piece of pottery .

LUKE 19:11, 12, 27 [Jesus] ., he told another illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they thought that the Kingdom of God was going to appear instantly. So he said: A man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return. ... Moreover, bring these enemies of mine here who did not want me to become king over them and execute them in front of me .

THESSELONIANS

... at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus - 2 These 1:7, 8

All passages NWT

RELATED POSTS

What does the bible mean when it speaks about ARMAGEDDON?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p865289

FURTHER READING:

What is the battle of Harmageddon?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... rmageddon/

To learn more please go to other posts related to ARMAGEDDON, DIVINE WAR and ...KILLING IN SCRIPTURE

[JehovahsWitness]

But if you'd ever like to discuss how and why you see the Bible as you do, I'll be happy to listen.

Fair enough. I'll keep that in mind.


JW

[NervyGuy]

Either the government JW envisages will be more or less the same as to what we have now, sans the corruption (somehow) and with God as remote as he is now... or there won't be a government, is how I think about the matter. After all, he said it - only the meek will be left alive.

I'm not sure I get the point of it all, but whatever.

[rikuoamero]

Either the government JW envisages will be more or less the same as to what we have now, sans the corruption (somehow) and with God as remote as he is now... or there won't be a government, is how I think about the matter. After all, he said it - only the meek will be left alive.

I'm not sure I get the point of it all, but whatever.

I can understand the confusion, I didn't exactly put together a sterling post. Let me try again.
With God, all things are possible, is the claim often heard. God can do all things. Which leads me to ponder just what in the heck is he gonna do with a government, as JWs envisage? What's the point? What pressing issues will arise that need a government staffed by humans to solve, like they do now in our world? What will this government do, in the post armageddon world, that God can't simply do himself?
Will there be officials of various offices? A Minister of Foreign Affairs? Immigration offices? Passports? Patents and copyrights? Trade laws? Antitrust laws? Advertising?
The point I was making is that JW cannot describe this post Armageddon government, because ultimately he would have to admit he can't give us an analogy or explanation. He has already said only the meek will be left alive, but that is far removed from the real world.

So either the government he wants will work like our governments do in the real world, thus making Armageddon superfluous since governments exist to deal with problems in the real world (our world filled with sin, according to Christians)...or there won't really be a government after all.
Either way, I can't see JW as actually speaking truth here.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 44 by JehovahsWitness]

The Pol Pot regime had VERY similar ideals to these delightful biblical quotations you've shared with us.

Your Jesus obviously DOESN'T love ALL the children of the world ...

They lied to me in Sunday school.

And I rather think that rather a lot of people of faith are lying to themselves.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 47 by rikuoamero]

For thousands of years Christians have been praying "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth..." . What people are actually praying for is for God's HEAVENLY GOVERNMENT meaning a government headed by Jesus, located in heaven to take control of this our planet earth. Only then, will the meek finally inherit the earth as promised, and be able to live in the conditions God originally wanted for humans.

INTERNAL STRUCTURE & DUTIES

• It is not unusual for people when they hear the word government, to think of certain features of human governments in existence today, and ask if the Kingdom Government is* organized along similar lines. The bible certainly doesn't answer all our questions about the structure and internal function of this government, but it does provide enough for people of faith to have complete confidence it will function perfectly.

Will the various governent members hold office?

• The bible indicates there is rank and position in heaven and Jesus indicated that would also be the case in his own government. The twelve Apostles were promised prominent positions but which if any of them would be in the privileged position of second to Jesus, he (Jesus said eras not his de ision).

Will the heavenly government have EARTHLY (human) officials?

• If bible prophecy is to be believed, there will indeed be appointments of earthly representatives of that government to communicate further instructions and provide oversight. No society can operate without a degree of organisation so whatever systems Jesus puts in place will be duly applied through some form of administration.

What will this government do, in the post armageddon world?

• The function of any government is (or should be) to promote the general welfare of its citizens. This is no different for Jesus and his government.

Do they pass legislation?

• Yes. No society can operate without legislation, some is already in evidence in the Christian bible, but the scriptures indicate there will be further legislation due to the changed circumstances

Will there be Judges?

• There will be no need for Judges in the sense of criminality, since there will be no crime. In bible times the Judges in Isreal were individuals appointed by God to provide instruction and guidance in the application of divine law. To what extent Jesus and his co-rulers will play a direct hand in this and how much and in what manner the earthly representatives will come into play, the Bible does not provide details, so I cannot say.

Patents and copyrights?

• No. The competitive economic system that necessitates such things will be eliminated. All scientific artistic or cultural discoveries will be shared for the enjoyment of the worldwide family of mankind.

Economic regulations?

• Yes. When we refer to "the economy" we are in fact speaking about "careful management of available resources". Although money may well be a thing of the past, earth's resources will be handled via the administration that has a good global view of how much is being produced and how it is best distributed. Whatever production is present will also need to be organized at some level. Hunger and poverty will be things of the past.

Trade laws? Antitrust laws? Advertising?

• However resources are managed it will be based on what the bible calls the "kingly law of love". We will have to wait and see what system Jesus will put in place after having completely destroyed the present commercial system, but we can be sure that greed and exploitation will be things of the past.

A Minister of Foreign Affairs?

• No. There will be one world government (God's Kingdom) and no borders. Everyone will be a citizen so there will be no "foreigners";, humanity will live as originally intended as one global brotherhood.

Immigration offices? Passports?

• See above

Will there be Police?

• Certainly not! Jehovah's people have never needed policing, there were no police in Israel and God's people today do not need anything but the Word and their bible trained consciences to control what they do or how they behave. Each individual Christian even now learns to "police" themselves, and since the meek alone will be alive, there will be absolutely nothing to fear from anyone else.

What needs would these masses have in paradise?

• There will be millions maybe billions of people living in their territory (the entire planet earth) that will need adequate food, clothing and housing, fulfilling work, a good clean environment in which to raise their families. Ensuring this is available for millions of people without exception with complete equality for all would be impossible without some kind of administration (thus "The Kingdom").
  
  There will also be the need for ongoing education as to the rule of law, in short there will be a need for each member of society to fully understand the "justice system" (the rules by which the new human society operate and any consequences of breaking those rules). This is in fact a inseperable from the need for spiritual guidance since all true justice comes from God, and this new society will be based on how God sees things.
  
  There will of course the need for a good health plan. Thanks to the powers given them, these rulerw will guide mankind back to perfection, perfect health. Death as a result of old age, deprivation or disease will eventually be a things of the past (see Rev 21:3, 4)

RELATED POSTS

What is God's Kingdom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 124#890124

Will life in the coming paradise EARTH be "boring"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 552#862552





NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 49 by JehovahsWitness]

drums fingers on table
So there will be legislation passed, but no police, no judges, no crime. Only the meek will survive.
There will have to be a careful managing of what I can only presume are finite resources (if the resources end up being infinite, what's the point of carefully managing them?). There will be officials of various ranks, who will take up administrative duties like in governments of today, because it's not like in the post armageddon world people can just talk to God directly or anything! No, they'd have to go through channels, an appeals process, like with courts today...no wait, there would be no judges. But will there...? There'll be legislation, so there'd have to be some sort of people who'd do something if or when a law is violated, if God himself isn't getting involved. But if God were to get involved and deal with these issues, then there'd be no point for legislation.

It's all so amusing this response. I predicted it perfectly. JW ultimately hasn't got the foggiest idea on what the post armageddon government will be like, can't use an analogy...but he's got perfect confidence it will run perfectly.
This is the difference between folks like me and folks like JW. Folks like me look at the real world, observe it and are able to make plans, notice what works and what doesn't. We can explain what happens and what will happen.
Folks like JW make vague, wishy-washy declarations of what the world will be like in the future that when boiled down, amount to little more than a shrug of "I dunno what the future world government will be like, but like a good Citizen (tm), I'll invest complete obedience and trust in it, even though I haven't the foggiest idea as to how it'll function".
I'm again not seeing from the Christian side of things an urge or requirement to grow intellectually, to puzzle things through.