Another Bible Blunder?

[RedEye]

It is a fact that if you continue to fabricate stories and events (ie. tell lies) that sooner or later you will contradict yourself because of not being able to remember what was stated earlier. This is called not being able to keep your lies straight.

Here is an example of Jesus telling us a "truth":

• John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man.

There is no qualification here by Jesus. The author of John also tells us that Jesus is the Word (Logos) and was there with God right from the very beginning of everything (John 1:1-14). That means that Jesus (the Word) was right there alongside God (he was an aspect of God) in heaven until he came down to Earth for a brief time.

Let's now go back a few centuries before Jesus (allegedly) appeared in human form and look at Elijah (who incidentally performed similar miracles to Jesus including raising someone from the dead - a role model!):

• 2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13? Did Jesus completely forget about Elijah? (Selective amnesia seems to be a common theme in the Bible). Isn't this just another instance of when you say enough things and you are making it up, it is impossible to keep the lies straight? Sooner or later you are caught out.

[RedEye]

My quote is not wrong. Most standard Bible translations have either "except"or "but" or "save".

Did you see me argue that "except"or "but" or "save" were never used? You did not.

Yes I did. Did you see me argue that these are expert translations for "if not" which make it clearer for English readers what was meant? You did not. When translating from one language to another (eg. Greek to English) a word by word translation does not always produce an easily understandable sentence. Try it with Google Translate sometime if you don't believe me. That is why you need someone fluent in both languages who can reword the passage (with good English in this case) to make it clear what the original author was saying.

You merely ignored my estimation of why they were used and the fallacy that created that you fell into. I believe this is called blinkered thinking...ignoring reports of the elephant's trunk because of an invested study in the whipish tail.

I addressed every objection you raised. Try reading my previous post again carefully and I'm sure that you will arrive at this same conclusion. It doesn't really serve much purpose to accuse me of ignoring you when I did exactly the opposite.

[RedEye]

As explained, no words have been added.

The text shows they did. Your explanation only holds true if it is true but claiming it to be true without proof is just plain wrong.

No words were added. A single word was used to replace a clumsy phrase (as a result of literal word-by-word translation from one language to another). That is what expert translators do.

But to suggest that the KJV translators had no agenda is blatantly dishonest.

I almost always quote from the NIV (as I did in this case) so I have no idea who you think you are arguing with.

[RedEye]

There is no qualification here by Jesus. The author of John also tells us that Jesus is the Word (Logos) and was there with God right from the very beginning of everything (John 1:1-14). That means that Jesus (the Word) was right there alongside God (he was an aspect of God) in heaven until he came down to Earth for a brief time.

Interesting thing is, John doesnt really directly say Jesus was the word, it is just the common interpretation.

• John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
  John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

No interpretation required.

Are you claiming that there is more than one heaven?

There is sky and there is heaven. It is possible and probable that they are not the same in Bible.

Where did I mention the sky in the OP?

[1213]

• John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
  John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

No interpretation required.

I think that is not same as directly Jesus was the word", but perhaps you are correct and Jesus is the word. However, the word became flesh could mean also that the word became flesh in Jesus, meaning, Jesus was just temple for the word to dwell. But perhaps that is not the correct understanding, all though it is said:

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Are you claiming that there is more than one heaven?

There is sky and there is heaven. It is possible and probable that they are not the same in Bible.

Where did I mention the sky in the OP?

The word that Bible uses can be translated heaven or sky. It can have two different meanings and in the case of Elijah, it is not necessary about Elijah going to heaven as Jesus went to Heaven.

[marco]

The word that Bible uses can be translated heaven or sky. It can have two different meanings and in the case of Elijah, it is not necessary about Elijah going to heaven as Jesus went to Heaven.

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing. Christ's theatrical ascension was supposed to be his movement into heaven. People who were magically brought up into the sky would be going to heaven.

"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Matthew 3:17 God was shouting from the sky.


I agree it's all nonsense but that's the Bible for you.

[RedEye]

Are you claiming that there is more than one heaven?

There is sky and there is heaven. It is possible and probable that they are not the same in Bible.

Where did I mention the sky in the OP?

The word that Bible uses can be translated heaven or sky.

Yes, because the Hebrews thought that the heavens were in the sky (or just above it). The word used in Genesis is raka which means vault or firmament (a solid dome over a flat disc of Earth) and can also be translated as heaven. So what? What does the location of heaven (as wrong as it is) matter?

It can have two different meanings and in the case of Elijah, it is not necessary about Elijah going to heaven as Jesus went to Heaven.

I have no idea what you are arguing. Can I suggest that you try to make your meaning more plain and elaborate if necessary?

[JehovahsWitness]

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing.

QUESTION: Are there any scriptures that indicate the bible writers distinguished between the sky (the physical atmosphere around the planet earth where birds fly) and the spiritual invisible abode where God is thought to dwell with the angels?

• 
  2 CHRON 2:6
  
  
  For the heavens and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain him, so who am I that I should build him a house except as a place for making sacrifices smoke before him?

  
  JOB 37:18
  Can you, with him, spread out the skies As solid as a metal mirror?
  
  ISAIAH 44:24
  I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth.
  
  JOB 26:7
  He stretches out the northern sky over empty space, Suspending the earth upon nothing;
  
  ISAIAH 42:5
  This is what the true God, Jehovah, says, the Creator of the heavens and the Grand One who stretched them out, The One who spread out the earth and its produce
  
  PSALMS 113:4-6
  Jehovah is high above all the nations; His glory is above the heavens [...] He stoops down to look on heaven and earth

Further Reading: Does God Live in a Specific Location?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... god-lives/


RELATED POSTS

Did Elijah did and go to heaven before Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 484#946484

[Tcg]

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing.

QUESTION: Are there any scriptures that indicate the bible writers distinguished between the sky (the physical atmosphere around the planet earth where birds fly) and the spiritual invisible abode where God is thought to dwell with the angels?

Yes, there are scriptures that distinguish the sky from God's abode, both of which are referred to as heaven. Paul even refers to the "third heaven", a place he calls paradise which must be a reference to God's abode.

So what are the other two? Paul never explains.

What this doesn't resolve for us is the question of which "heaven" Elijah was taken up into.

Was he taken up into the sky? Then what? Live on a cloud? Not likely. It makes no sense at all. Clearly the verse is referring to God's abode. The same heaven Jesus mentioned.

[marco]

QUESTION: Are there any scriptures that indicate the bible writers distinguished between the sky (the physical atmosphere around the planet earth where birds fly) and the spiritual invisible abode where God is thought to dwell with the angels?

I would be embarrassed to offer this to 11-year old language students. Of course old mythologies make a distinction between the space that birds occupy when we see them and the space gods occupy when we don't.

But to show that we can ask even more foolish questions, we have:

Does God live in an actual place?

Yes. God lives in a specific place"the heavens.

So we have the old idea of a god with ichor in his veins parading his territory and occasionally taking a hop, skip and jump down to earth. There are enough follies in Scripture, surely, without inventing more. I don't even find this amusing any more. It is sad.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing.

QUESTION: Are there any scriptures that indicate the bible writers distinguished between the sky (the physical atmosphere around the planet earth where birds fly) and the spiritual invisible abode where God is thought to dwell with the angels?

Yes, there are scriptures that distinguish the sky from God's abode, both of which are referred to as heaven.

Thank you for actually answering the question tcg.

Sometimes the bible says "heaven" and it's refering to the physical sky we humans can see above us.

Sometimes the bible says "heaven" and it's refering to the spritual unseen abode of God.

They were not considered one and the same thing.



JW

RELATED POSTS [POSTS in this thread]

Did Elijah did and go to heaven before Christ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 484#946484

Did the bible writer distinguish between the sky and God's invisible spritual abode?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 686#946686