Another Bible Blunder?

[RedEye]

It is a fact that if you continue to fabricate stories and events (ie. tell lies) that sooner or later you will contradict yourself because of not being able to remember what was stated earlier. This is called not being able to keep your lies straight.

Here is an example of Jesus telling us a "truth":

• John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man.

There is no qualification here by Jesus. The author of John also tells us that Jesus is the Word (Logos) and was there with God right from the very beginning of everything (John 1:1-14). That means that Jesus (the Word) was right there alongside God (he was an aspect of God) in heaven until he came down to Earth for a brief time.

Let's now go back a few centuries before Jesus (allegedly) appeared in human form and look at Elijah (who incidentally performed similar miracles to Jesus including raising someone from the dead - a role model!):

• 2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13? Did Jesus completely forget about Elijah? (Selective amnesia seems to be a common theme in the Bible). Isn't this just another instance of when you say enough things and you are making it up, it is impossible to keep the lies straight? Sooner or later you are caught out.

[marco]

Sometimes the bible says "heaven" and it's refering to the physical sky we humans can see above us.

Sometimes the bible says "heaven" and it's refering to the spritual unseen abode of God.

This is common to ancient languages since - I repeat - heaven was supposed to be in the sky. If someone went up into the sky (apart from Icarus and his dad) they went to heaven. If someone's theology depends on this distinguishing feature, then it's time to look for another one.


We can translate: Jupiter looked down from the sky as Jupiter looked down from heaven. So if some mythical prophet was taken up into the sky he was allegedly going to paradise, regardless of modern theologies.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13?

Again, I am always amazed at what lengths some try to go to to find contradictions in Scripture. I honestly have no idea how someone could have a problem with Jesus words. Hes merely talking to the crowd pretty much pointing out the obvious " that no one can obtain heaven a part from the Father and that never before has anyone come from heaven, come to earth claiming to be the son of God, and then ascended back to heaven " not even Elijah. And His point of course being to point out to the crowd that other human beings dont typically get swept up into heaven, which Im pretty sure the crowd would agree with Him. No one else can claim what Christ claims. No one.

How is that not the point?

[Tcg]

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing.

QUESTION: Are there any scriptures that indicate the bible writers distinguished between the sky (the physical atmosphere around the planet earth where birds fly) and the spiritual invisible abode where God is thought to dwell with the angels?

Yes, there are scriptures that distinguish the sky from God's abode, both of which are referred to as heaven.

Thank you for actually answering the question tcg.

I'm not sure why you are thanking me when I totally disagree with your conclusion. Here is the part of my post you must have overlooked given that you didn't address it:

What this doesn't resolve for us is the question of which "heaven" Elijah was taken up into.

Was he taken up into the sky? Then what? Live on a cloud? Not likely. It makes no sense at all. Clearly the verse is referring to God's abode. The same heaven Jesus mentioned.

If it weren't for the conflict it causes with the words the author of John put in Jesus' mouth, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be no reason to doubt the story describes Elijah going to heaven the abode of God and no one would question this fact.

Questioning the obvious in this case is simply the result of a scramble to cover this obvious flaw in the Bible story. If it weren't for the obvious error the author of John made, Elijah would be relaxing in heaven playing his harp in peace.

[1213]

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing.

But is there any Biblical reason to think so? Or is that just some unsupported misinterpretation?

[StuartJ]

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing.

But is there any Biblical reason to think so? Or is that just some unsupported misinterpretation?

And the Elohim made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And the Elohim called the firmament Heaven.


Then Yahweh rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of Heaven;

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto Heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5And Yahweh came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Biblically, we are living in the Dome of Heaven right now ...!

The mythological Canaanite Elohim and the newer Yahweh live in the upper reaches of the Dome of Heaven.

On the outside of the metal canopy there is the water of the Universe.

And if whichever version of "God" you believe in gets really ticked with you ...

They can just crack open the windows of the biblical Dome of Heaven and fill it up to the depth of the Zagros Mountains - or Mt. Ararat - depending upon which mythology you're in, and drown all the innocent kiddies and koalas and everything else that hasn't ever heard of your psychopathic, genocidal version of "God".

[marco]

The Greek word and the Latin word caelum certainly mean sky but in religious texts they always mean heaven, since heaven and the sky were one and the same thing.

But is there any Biblical reason to think so? Or is that just some unsupported misinterpretation?

I don't know what an "unsupported misinterpretation" might look like, 1213. When we're dealing with birds flying, we can take take the word sky as appropriate. When we have humans in ancient times being lifed up supernaturally, we are in the domain of the heavens. That would be the normal translation. I can't see the purpose of transporting a human to the dangerous asteroid belt or onto the uncompromising heat of Mercury. We both have an interpretation: mine is the reasonable one. Sky in old mythologies, including the biblical ones, is where heaven is.

[RedEye]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

So Elijah was taken up into heaven where Jesus was there waiting. How can that possibly be reconciled with what Jesus stated unequivocally in John 3:13?

Again, I am always amazed at what lengths some try to go to to find contradictions in Scripture. I honestly have no idea how someone could have a problem with Jesus words. Hes merely talking to the crowd pretty much pointing out the obvious " that no one can obtain heaven a part from the Father and that never before has anyone come from heaven, come to earth claiming to be the son of God, and then ascended back to heaven " not even Elijah. And His point of course being to point out to the crowd that other human beings dont typically get swept up into heaven, which Im pretty sure the crowd would agree with Him. No one else can claim what Christ claims. No one.

How is that not the point?

Thank you for your version of what the verses in question should have stated. Can we now return to what they actually say rather than what you would hope they had said?

[Jubal]

Plenty of room for everyone in the various heavens :

One heaven is mentioned in 1 Enoch.

Two heavens according to the Clementine Recognitions.

Three heavens says the Testament of Solomon.

Five heavens in 3 Baruch.

Seven heavens is most popular - found in 2 Enoch, The Life Of Adam And Eve, The Testament Of The Twelve Patriarchs and The Vision of Isaiah.

Eight heavens are found in The Hypostasis Of The Archons and On The Origin Of The World.

Ten heavens is found in The Coptic Apocalypse Of Paul.

Don't think these ancient religious works show much real knowledge of the heavens. Dig this vein in vain for the wisdom of the ancients.

Jubal

[1213]

And the Elohim made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And the Elohim called the firmament Heaven.

Then Yahweh rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of Heaven;

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto Heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5And Yahweh came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

The word firmament can be translated sky, heaven or air. I think sky is the correct term in this, because it means more clearly the physical atmosphere. But I understand that heaven can also be used for sky. However, the point is, there are at least two different things that are called heaven. The first is obviously the visible sky and the second is the realm of God. I think we all can agree that there is visible God and angels hanging in the sky. And I think there shouldnt be, because Bible tells God is spirit. Spirit is not physical thing.

Spirit is like state of mind. Something like team spirit. You may recognize team spirit in sports and it is not physical thing, but it still may exist and have influence on how team plays. God is in my opinion greater than team spirit, but they both act similarly, in higher level. Materialistic person, like atheists, see only material levels, but in Biblical point of view there are spiritual level(s) also. And spiritual level is like the level of the mind. Maybe this is subjective opinion, but I think mind is on higher level than physical matters. And I understand if that higher level is called heaven. And as some excellently brought up, there are many different heavens according to the scriptures. And I think mind can also act in different levels, and that leads to the idea of multiple heavens. So, Bible describes multidimensional reality with more than 3 dimensions, while materialistic person has only 3 dimensions normally. (Some call time the fourth dimension, but I dont think it is reasonable for materialistic person).

On the outside of the metal canopy ...

Metal canopy?

[marco]

Seven heavens is most popular - found in 2 Enoch, The Life Of Adam And Eve, The Testament Of The Twelve Patriarchs and The Vision of Isaiah.

Seven must be the right number since traditionally Muhammad also traversed seven heavens on his winged horse, with the busy angel Gabriel to reach the very residence of God and bargain with him about today's daily prayer routine.

Perhaps minor figures like Adam, Abraham and Moses live in the lesser hotel rooms.

Jesus may well have been talking of one single heaven, the suite of rooms of the Father,where the Holy Spirit was probably accommodated. He was aware of the various other rooms since he said his dad's hotel had lots of rooms. Muhammad wouldn't arrive in the top room for another 600 years so Jesus was correct at the time of speaking.