Presumption and Imagination

[StuartJ]

A Christian member wrote on another topic:

I'd presume there was a single created sperm. I imagine it was created inside the womb next to the egg at the point of fertilisation.

To me, this speaks to the very heart of religious belief.

Can people of faith be in a state of the mind that blurs the distinction between what is broadly known as "reality" and what I term "imaginality" ...?

Because, when it comes down to matters of fact, we find that there is little to none when it comes to matters of faith.

[AdHoc]

A Christian member wrote on another topic:

I'd presume there was a single created sperm. I imagine it was created inside the womb next to the egg at the point of fertilisation.

To me, this speaks to the very heart of religious belief.

Can people of faith be in a state of the mind that blurs the distinction between what is broadly known as "reality" and what I term "imaginality" ...?

Because, when it comes down to matters of fact, we find that there is little to none when it comes to matters of faith.

So what exactly is the question here?

Are you wondering if your imagination about what all "people of faith" are thinking is true? Or are you wondering hypothetically if a person of faith could ever be in that state of mind?

Either way I hope you're not dissing the benefits of the human imagination... it has steered a few astray for sure but without it you'd still be living in a cave painting animals on the walls.

[William]

[Replying to post 2 by AdHoc]

Either way I hope you're not dissing the benefits of the human imagination... it has steered a few astray for sure but without it you'd still be living in a cave painting animals on the walls.

I doubt one would even paint anything on any wall without imagination...

Condescending Ideas About Imagination

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 2 by AdHoc]

So what exactly is the question here?

Can people of faith be in a state of the mind that blurs the distinction between what is broadly known as "reality" and what I term "imaginality" ...?

In my experience, people of faith play a convoluted game of Pretend.

They KNOW the angels and virgins and talking donkeys and such are just make-believe,

I suggest that people of faith are in a special state of the mind.

[AdHoc]

[Replying to post 2 by AdHoc]

So what exactly is the question here?

Can people of faith be in a state of the mind that blurs the distinction between what is broadly known as "reality" and what I term "imaginality" ...?

In my experience, people of faith play a convoluted game of Pretend.

"In my experience..."?

Wait... what?

So are you a "people of faith"?

How could you have an experience with another person's thoughts? That's the opposite of experience that's literally your imagination.

They KNOW the angels and virgins and talking donkeys and such are just make-believe,

Again... see my point above and here I will add now you are making stuff up because I most certainly do not "KNOW the angels and [the virgin birth] and [a talking donkey] and such are just make-believe"

I suggest that people of faith are in a special state of the mind.

Fair enough.

In all seriousness, I can see why you might think this about "people of faith" and its certainly a reasonable position to take but I hope you can see my point that its a little bit absurd to say with any degree of certainty what other people are thinking.

To your question I think every human has to deal with the line between faith and evidence.

Did you believe in abiogenesis?

Did you believe Hannibal existed and took an army including elephants through the Alps?

Did you believe that Saddam Husein had weapons of mass destruction?

(Full disclosure I fell for 2 out of the three above)

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 5 by AdHoc]

but I hope you can see my point that its a little bit absurd to say with any degree of certainty what other people are thinking.

Yep ...

This time I omitted my usual "It seems to me" qualifier.

It seems to me that if folks ADMIT they presume and imagine things about the possibly fictional Jesus character ...

We can be pretty sure they KNOW they are dealing with make-believe in a great big game of Pretend.

It seems to me that the special state of the mind wouldn't necessarily extend so far that they would presume to accept their imaginings as reality ...

Or would it ...?

[StuartJ]

BELIEF: That state of the mind by which it assents to propositions, not by reason of their intrinsic evidence, but because of authority.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm

Just how far DOES the state of the mind extend in blurring the distinction between reality and fantasy ...?

Christians can be in a state of the mind that assents to the proposition that Jesus opened the Dome of Heaven in the water-filled Universe of Genesis 1 ...

This is fantasy.

Christians can be in a state of the mind that assents to the proposition that Jesus created the first male human from mud, and the first female from one of his ribs, 6,000 years ago.

This is fantasy.

Christians can be in a state of the mind that assents to the proposition that Jesus was sired by "God" on a human virgin.

This is fantasy.

These fantasies are NEVER demonstrated as having come from ANYWHERE other than human imaginations ...

Yet folks in that certain state of the mind will presume to pass the fantasies off as reality.

I have no scientific validation ...

But my personal observations are that folks of faith do blur the distinction between fantasy and reality.

And of course no one (except maybe Jesus) can read their minds to ascertain just how GENUINE they are about the angels and virgins and talking animals.

(And yes, I'm sure we can scrutinise my choice of wording here - but the intent of what I'm saying is abundantly clear.)

[rikuoamero]

A Christian member wrote on another topic:

I'd presume there was a single created sperm. I imagine it was created inside the womb next to the egg at the point of fertilisation.

To me, this speaks to the very heart of religious belief.

Can people of faith be in a state of the mind that blurs the distinction between what is broadly known as "reality" and what I term "imaginality" ...?

Because, when it comes down to matters of fact, we find that there is little to none when it comes to matters of faith.

I'd like to have a link to that, if you could...? There's a few people I can think of who might have said that.
Anyway, assuming for the sake of argument that someone did indeed say it, that person is quite frankly unscientific. They just flat out declare that a sperm was created, inside the womb, next to an egg, and give literally nothing at all to show that that is indeed true.
I'm going to go all Sherlock Holmes on this. Stuart, was this line taken from a discussion about Mary and how she got pregnant on Jesus? It's what I'm guessing here - the line gives off that emotional vibe of needing God to NOT be like Zeus and having sexual relationship with mortal women, so the person who said it just makes up, declares, that a sperm and egg were created together, because surely Christianity's God is so unlike Zeus that he would never deign to have sex!

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 8 by rikuoamero]

viewtopic.php?t=35039&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There ya go ...

Post 6

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by rikuoamero]

viewtopic.php?t=35039&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There ya go ...

Post 6

Thank you, although I do have to admit Wootah was not on my list. Still, my guess as to the topic was right.
Christians, this is what is meant by those of us who point out "make it up and declare it to be true". Wootah in that topic just declared that a sperm was created next to an egg in the womb. Just declared it. Does he have evidence? Is there any indication that this is indeed what happened? Does he have literally anything at all to go on to show that this is what happened with a Jewish woman 2,000 years ago?
Nope, but he just declared it to be true, ipso facto. He has no body to examine, nothing from which to draw facts from, nothing but his own imagination. Could Paul have done this? Certainly. Paul could have just "presumed" things. Could Peter? The authors of the Gospels? The authors of the Old Testament books?