What does it take to prove descent?

[rikuoamero]

So, the situation is problematic for me. I'm told that there are prophecies, and that among them, we are told that a descendant of the legendary King David will take his throne and drive out Israel's enemies.

I want to focus on the descent part. How does one prove descent? With Jesus, we have two Gospels (Matthew and Luke) rattling off a list of names (different lists by the way) supposedly going back to David and even further. We have Paul mentioning Jesus to be a descendant.
But...IS Jesus a descendant? What constitutes evidence for the claim that he is? Two lists of names?
I want to ask Christian apologists - imagine Jesus's first coming was in the present day. Would you believe someone to be a descendant of the legend that is King David, simply because someone else rattled off a list of names? "A is the son of B, B is the son of C, C is the son of D..."? I'm wondering why you're taking Jesus's biological credentials so...lightly. I mean, it's not like people back then had birth certs, or kept blood tests or DNA records.
How do we know Jesus IS a descendant of David? Can we verify the existence of the people in the supposed lists of ancestry? Did Jews keep absolutely meticulous genealogical records?
I can rattle off a list of names, and say I'm descended from say...the Rockefellers for instance. But does saying "Rikuoamero was the son of Adam, who was the son of Bob, who was the son of Charlie, who was the son of John Rockefellor Sr" mean that I am to be considered an heir to the Rockefeller fortune?

[StuartJ]

I don’t feel a need to prove the claim

I like that SO much, I'm going to quote it again ...

I don’t feel a need to prove the claim

The VERY CORE of faith communities.

and I can’t imagine having that proof would change anything for anyone.

Folks of faith imagine things all the time.

It's a word I use a lot when it comes to folks of faith.

It's a word folks of faith use of themselves.

I suggest that you have imagined that you can't imagine proof changing anything for anyone.

The tiniest hint of proof of ANYTHING we godless ones ask for proof of would change EVERYTHING.

But you see ...

It's the total absence of proof that prevents us from changing the opinion that folks of faith have NO proof.

That opinion should be VERY easy to change.

The state of the mind known as "belief", on the other hand, looks to me to be as hard to change as any other mind-altering addiction.

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't think I mentioned 21st Century criminal investigation but rather first century religious norms. I see no reason to extrapolate one to the other?

If one is going to use methodologies from thousands of years ago to identify descent...{snip}?

Who is suggesting such a thing ? I am simply pointing out that it is reasonable to ask which methodologies where used thousands of years ago, I am not suggesting that modern day methodologies should be limited to those used thousands of years ago.







JW



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[rikuoamero]

I don't think I mentioned 21st Century criminal investigation but rather first century religious norms. I see no reason to extrapolate one to the other?

If one is going to use methodologies from thousands of years ago to identify descent...{snip}?

Who is suggesting such a thing ?




JW

Tell me...how does one show one to be of the descent of David? I don't recall any method being discussed, other than two gospel authors writing a list of names decades after Jesus.
So what was the method used? You and I have sparred on the topic of prophecy before.

[Yusef]

Also according to a hadith I read; One the greatest Christian scholars came to the 7th Imam, Moses alKadhim(a.s.) and converted to Islam cause of he got several answeres from the Imam including he was been awared that the mother of Mary was named 'Martha' the Syriac name, and 'Wahibah' the Arabic
Ref: http://smj-en.blogspot.com/2010/02/2.html?m=0

Amazing! It is surprising that the greatest Christian scholar in the known universe was persuaded simply by hearing a rumour about Mary's mum. Did the clever Imam get his knowledge from osmosis or was he able to travel in time just as Muhammad was able to travel in space?

There is scant information on Mary in the Bible. Where did Muhammad get his details from, given that Muhammad based his tales on Jewish and Christian stories?

first of all you should look at the lineage by clicking on the blogspot;

Two,
I've read many narration and story about great spiritual men of any religion that:
They weren't like you-not! Like me fool,
And they were very powerful in the spirituality! And it's enough for them that a bit information make them changing!
How do we now, if... you can look at the Crossword post i brought

See! How The Truth helps us!
Look at this post i sent the same time!
ref:Re: Judas Iscariot EVIL or HOLY !!?
Just a !!??? symbol of question changed our thoughts!!

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 20 by bjs]

If we are going for the preponderance of evidence then I would say that we have that (existing genealogies with no rational reason to doubt them).

I'm going to do something different.

Walk me through this.
Pretend you and I are there, two thousand years ago. There's this feller, by name of Jesus, and there's word - he's of the descent of David.
Do you believe him? If so, why? Should I believe him? If so, why?

I don’t feel a need to prove the claim,

There are these things called prophecies, but if you don't think they need to be proven...shall I put that on record?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

I am simply pointing out that it is reasonable to ask which methodologies where used thousands of years ago,

That's precisely my point. There were no methodologies used, in regards to this specific claim.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

I am simply pointing out that it is reasonable to ask which methodologies where used thousands of years ago,

That's precisely my point. There were no methodologies used, in regards to this specific claim.

Then why were you refering to blood and DNA? No method means that a Davidian blood connection to David would not be necessary since establishing such a thing would be "a method".

[JehovahsWitness]

Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"

Obviously what might satisfy the unsophisticated should not meet modern requirements. .

Exactly my point!

Thanks for agreeing.

You are most welcome. I always like to voice my agreement when possible. Thanks for your insightful and respectful input.



JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]

I am simply pointing out that it is reasonable to ask which methodologies where used thousands of years ago,

That's precisely my point. There were no methodologies used, in regards to this specific claim.

Then why were you refering to blood and DNA? No method means that a Davidian blood connection to David would not be necessary since establishing such a thing would be "a method".

I'm confused. Do you think I'm arguing that it is not necessary to establish a genetic link between King David and his supposed descendant, when someone comes along to claim his throne?
I'm not. I'm arguing the opposite. The Hebrews were pretty gung ho on the topic of flesh and blood descent. However, given that this was 2,000 or so years ago, no-one could have used DNA testing, as it was unknown as a methodology. Which means there was nothing given to show whether or not Jesus really was a Davidian descendant.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 29 by rikuoamero]

So your point is that ", no-one could have used DNA testing, as it was unknown as a methodology. "? That's your point? If so you are correct ancient Hebrews didn't use DNA testing.

I agree.

J W