Reasons for 'belief'

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Mithrae
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Reasons for 'belief'

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

Discussions on religion often result in folk talking past each other and each 'side' adopting seemingly dogmatic positions, in part because of uncommunicated and often unexamined epistemic assumptions or approaches to belief and knowledge.

For example we often see atheists making the claim that there is "no evidence" for the views they reject. Sometimes this is without clarifying (or even refusing point-blank to answer even when asked about very specific examples) what is meant by 'evidence,' perhaps because testimonial evidence - on which we all depend every time we watch the news or weather report or read about some scientific breakthrough - would shatter the "no evidence" rhetoric if it were acknowledged as a modest but valid form of evidence. But even more fundamentally than that, the demand for evidence or boasting that there is "not a shred" of it reflects a particular approach to belief, roughly described by A or B below, which in itself may not be justified by the critics' own standards... and often isn't even recognized as such!

Conversely, many theists make claims and arguments which really seem persuasive to them, but likewise seem to depend on underlying assumptions which critics just don't share. For example in the case of apologetics around Jesus' resurrection it's roughly described by C below - they just try to knock down alternative scenarios to claim that resurrection is the best explanation. Or in the case of the 'moral argument' or variations on Pascal's wager it would be something more like E below.

In one thread a while back I outlined what I think are the main types of epistemic approaches:
  • Principled - Belief as an intellectual stance, which should be measured by specific criteria
    A > Accepting only what is proven with certainty
    B > Accepting only that for which we have 'sufficient evidence' or justification
    C > Accepting the most reasonable theory/s of any given question/s or data

    Pragmatic - Belief as a normal process, which should be questioned and refined
    D > Accepting what we start out believing, unless and until we find reason to change those beliefs
    E > Accepting whatever seems most beneficial to ourselves or our community
Personally, I find that some combination of C and D is both what comes most naturally to me and seems most reasonable and easily-justified; with the important caveat that accepting something as the most reasonable view often still leaves plenty of room for uncertainty!

Of course there's worthy criticisms of all approaches. For example, A is usually impossible. B can be entirely arbitrary. C fails in cases of (or fails to account for) big uncertainties or lacking data. D is somewhat arbitrary, in the big picture. E is subjective.



So what about everyone else:
Which epistemic approach/es do you adopt? Do you profess a lack of belief and demand 'sufficient evidence' before accepting something (B), or cling to your existing views unless and until they're disproven (D), or something else? Have I missed some important approach?

Whatever approach you take, how do you justify it? Perhaps you even simply take it as axiomatic, unjustified but necessary?

And what potential problems or weaknesses do you see in the approach you take?

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #11

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 4 by Mithrae]

Consider what DI said in his original reply to what I think as well. I've read it, and there's not a single thing he said in it that I disagree with.
In fact I've highlighted one possible example of that already in the OP, in that we all accept other people's testimony as a legitimate source of information throughout our daily lives, but when it comes to testimony in conflict with a worldview of materialist naturalism some people refuse to consider it
In your OP, you gave examples like the weather report. If I watch a weather report on TV, and they say it's going to rain tomorrow, I will more likely than not believe them, for several reasons.
1) They perform complex calculations using advanced computer hardware to monitor weather patterns and then build models for what they think is going to happen
2) I have a life-time's worth of memories of it having rained before. Raining is not unusual.
3) If ever they make a mistake, they go back to check where they made that mistake and then come up with a solution.
4) Rain does not violate any known laws of physics or biology or chemistry. No-one on the weather channels say rain happens because a god intervenes in the natural world.

If you (general you) have testimony that is in conflict with my materialist naturalistic worldview, you had better have more than just words out of your mouth. If you say to me "Jesus came back from death a few days after dying and after some time, flew off up into the sky", but all you have are just words...I'm not going to believe you.
and persist instead with triumphant "not a shred of evidence" rhetoric.
If all you have are just the words out of your mouth...then sorry that's not what I call evidence.
Some people accept things based on very little evidence, while some people are extremely sceptical. And others are selectively-sceptical, applying a different set of evidentiary expectations depending on what conclusions are in view.
We wouldn't be able to live our lives otherwise. Take me for example. I have an allergy towards nuts. So naturally, I'm obsessive about reading food labels. I will eat something if the label has no mention of nuts. Obviously, I have no way of actually testing the food before eating, so I will take the nutritional label at their word. If I didn't, I simply wouldn't be able to eat.
I quite simply cannot go through life basing everything on A.
And as for <A>... well sure, there's one or two things which can be absolutely certain - our own existence and axioms of logic and maths
Hmm... For example, I could say 2 + 3 = 6 and that I'm absolutely certain about it...as long as I explain that the symbol 2 I use there I axiomatically consider to be a placeholder symbol, in much the same way others might say n + 3 = 6.
If we accept <D> as a valid epistemic approach, then the purely passive debate tactic of demanding evidence amounts to nothing more than an expression of subjective opinion - it does not demonstrate any problem with the religious perspective, so anyone interested in 'winning' the debate still has a burden of proof to uphold.
I start out believing you are not guilty of any charge of you hitting your spouse. Do I have a burden of proof? Or should I wait until such evidence is provided to me that you do "in fact" hit your spouse?

Stop trying to flip the burden of proof.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #12

Post by Mithrae »

wiploc wrote:
So what about everyone else:
Which epistemic approach/es do you adopt? Do you profess a lack of belief and demand 'sufficient evidence' before accepting something (B), or cling to your existing views unless and until they're disproven (D), or something else? Have I missed some important approach?

Whatever approach you take, how do you justify it? Perhaps you even simply take it as axiomatic, unjustified but necessary?

And what potential problems or weaknesses do you see in the approach you take?
A is impractical.

B, C, and D are probably techniques we switch back and forth between as we negotiate our day.

E is probably something we're all prone to, though we shouldn't be proud of it.

For a discussion like this, where we are reasoning our way to a conclusion about whether gods exist, not hurriedly but deliberately, B seems the only appropriate answer.
But why? Off the top of my head I can't actually think of any cases where our approach is purely to with-hold belief pending 'sufficient evidence.' In the 2013 thread I first raised this, examples came up like "If your friend told you his dog flew around the house..." But in that case what we'd do is maintain our existing conviction that dogs don't fly, until persuaded otherwise - that's approach D and C, not B.

Whenever we encounter a new concept we'll necessarily compare and contrast it against our existing views and concepts; it would be an incomprehensible concept unless there were at least some points of contact between the old and new. So we are already, automatically applying some evaluation and contextualization to it. Sometimes it'll end up changing our old views. But flying dogs we'll reject, provisionally, while hearing about a distant cousin's wedding we'll probably accept provisionally. If our impressions are entirely neutral it'll be because we have little reason to accept or reject it, not because of some predefined commitment to with-holding acceptance pending 'sufficient evidence.'



In a similar vein...
rikuoamero wrote:
If we accept <D> as a valid epistemic approach, then the purely passive debate tactic of demanding evidence amounts to nothing more than an expression of subjective opinion - it does not demonstrate any problem with the religious perspective, so anyone interested in 'winning' the debate still has a burden of proof to uphold.
I start out believing you are not guilty of any charge of you hitting your spouse. Do I have a burden of proof? Or should I wait until such evidence is provided to me that you do "in fact" hit your spouse?

Stop trying to flip the burden of proof.
Most people don't beat their spouses; in any random case, the view that a person doesn't beat their spouse is more probably true than the opposite. The reason you believe someone doesn't beat their spouse is in the same vein as the reason you believe they do sleep regularly. And both of those are positive beliefs (if tentative and provisional) held in light of existing views and knowledge, not with-holding an opinion pending sufficient evidence.

If you're talking about legal criteria, that's an entirely different subject grounded in human rights and political theory, not epistemology; presumption of innocence sometimes means that the guilty go free with a 'not guilty' verdict despite a substantial weight of evidence suggesting their guilt.

Back in the context of religious discussion, there's only a burden of proof for those who want to or think that they will 'win' the debate and/or demonstrate irrationality on their opponents' part. An atheist who comes here only to passively inform us of what might change their minds is merely expressing opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't engage at all with any contrary opinions - it's not debate. Folk who want to engage and debate must (if we accept <D> and <C> as valid epistemic approaches) lay out a more reasonable alternative to the views which their opponents currently hold - however broadly or specifically is required in a specific discussion/topic - because in the absence of such an alternative their rational choice, theist and atheist alike, would be to maintain their current views.

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #13

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 12 by Mithrae]
Most people don't beat their spouses;
It does happen. I witnessed my mother attacking my father a few times, so for me, it's not a far out idea.
in any random case, the view that a person doesn't beat their spouse is more probably true than the opposite.
Agreed, but I don't rule it out entirely. I know it can happen.
The reason you believe someone doesn't beat their spouse is in the same vein as the reason you believe they do sleep regularly. And both of those are positive beliefs (if tentative and provisional) held in light of existing views and knowledge, not with-holding an opinion pending sufficient evidence.
I'm surprised. You left out the self serving legal reason, which is why I worded it the way I did. I don't believe you are guilty of the charge, because if I was to "convict" you of it sans evidence, the same thing could happen to me, and I would have no defense against it.
If you're talking about legal criteria, that's an entirely different subject grounded in human rights and political theory, not epistemology; presumption of innocence sometimes means that the guilty go free with a 'not guilty' verdict despite a substantial weight of evidence suggesting their guilt.
Ahh...so you did think of it. Good on you, mate!
Back in the context of religious discussion, there's only a burden of proof for those who want to or think that they will 'win' the debate and/or demonstrate irrationality on their opponents' part.
This is a debate website, after all.
Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't engage at all with any contrary opinions - it's not debate.
Except it does challenge opinions - it challenges those opinions who insist that this atheist person says he doesn't believe in God for nefarious reasons. The types of people who say we deliberately chose against God, or are rebelling against God, or are agents of Satan.
That last one is one I heard recently on David Smalley's podcast, the Dogma Debate a couple months back, where a fundamentalist Christian after hearing David explain his life long struggle with trying to maintain his Christian beliefs just accused him of being a liar, an agent of Satan and someone who didn't struggle at all. And the kicker? The accuser was a retired cop, someone who ought to know about presumption of innocence and all that stuff.

If an atheist person really is just waiting on evidence, that by itself is a challenge. That person refutes the charges being levied against him by the fundie simply by existing.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #14

Post by Mithrae »

StuartJ wrote: [Replying to post 5 by Mithrae]

You DID receive an answer ...

TWICE.

Twice I told you I wasn't going to play analogies with you.
Twice refusing to answer the question is not answering it :roll: TCG answered the question even though it wasn't asked of him; he said he would consider it "evidence of a regrown leg" but not evidence of anything unnatural. Hopelessly arbitrary though such an approach would be - hey, transitional fossils are evidence of transitional fossils, but not of evolution! - at least it's an answer. Wiploc has answered, intelligently.

But you, perhaps because of your previous claims that even a shred of evidence would make you "tuck tail and run," have refused to give a straight answer as to what you'd accept as evidence, even given such a specific hypothetical. I can only conclude that you're worried it's not so hypothetical after all, afraid you'll be shown that there really is some thought-provoking evidence out there :lol:


#####

wiploc wrote:
Mithrae wrote: On the other hand, the question which I asked one particularly gloating "not a shred of evidence" fellow was whether the testimony under oath of three or four surgeons and medical staff who'd seen a leg amputated and later regrown would constitute legitimate evidence?
Excellent specific example, thanks.

I don't see how it would constitute evidence of gods. Why wouldn't it be evidence that the Republicans had knocked off their opposition to stem cell research? Why is it the theists who get to say, "I don't understand this, so I get to decide what it means"?

I don't think magic has any explanatory powers at all.

But suppose we stipulate magic. And suppose you say, "Therefore, god," but I say, "Therefore, leprechaun." Does either of us have a shred of evidence that we're right?

I'm open to the possibility that magic will one day be explanatory. Some unforeseen concatenation of events that add up to magic somehow being an explanation, with predictions and testable consequences. Could happen.

I don't expect that, but I'm open to it.

In the meantime, I don't know of any reason to believe in either gods or magic.
Well let's make the example a bit more specific: It's not stem cells, not even in the 21st century where we might speculate some secret government medical technology.

And there was no voodoo ritual or magick ceremony performed, no leprechauns beseeched or sighted. To satisfy Stuart's concerns, the amputee prayed fervently at a shrine to "the Mother of God the Blessed Virgin Mary" for a couple of years before the new leg appeared.

There's a few distinct questions we can draw from such an example:
- Would it be legitimate evidence of a healed amputee?
- Would it be legitimate evidence of something 'supernatural'?
- Would it be legitimate evidence supporting Christianity? And if so, how specifically?
- And would it be 'sufficient evidence' (whatever that means) for any of those things?

Obviously the fourth is the most relevant to this thread. Despite the other problems with the absolutism and dogmatism of declaring "not a shred of evidence," perhaps those folk instinctively recognize the issue here. If we admit that there is some legitimate evidence for a perspective but then just say it's not good enough, on what basis is that assessment made?

In a comparative approach (such as <C>) there's a way to make such assessments; the 'sufficient evidence' approach <B> seems much more problematic, often if not always largely arbitrary.

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #15

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 14 by Mithrae]
And there was no voodoo ritual or magick ceremony performed, no leprechauns beseeched or sighted. To satisfy Stuart's concerns, the amputee prayed fervently at a shrine to "the Mother of God the Blessed Virgin Mary" for a couple of years before the new leg appeared.
Just for clarification, how is praying at a shrine to a statue of a woman not in the same class as a voodoo ritual or a magick ceremony, or beseeching leprechauns?
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #16

Post by Mithrae »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Mithrae]
And there was no voodoo ritual or magick ceremony performed, no leprechauns beseeched or sighted. To satisfy Stuart's concerns, the amputee prayed fervently at a shrine to "the Mother of God the Blessed Virgin Mary" for a couple of years before the new leg appeared.
Just for clarification, how is praying at a shrine to a statue of a woman not in the same class as a voodoo ritual or a magick ceremony, or beseeching leprechauns?
If the leprechauns answered, it would be. Or put another way around, why was willow-bark treatment for headaches not in the same class as leeches or knocking on wood? If something has been seen to have effective results, it becomes more likely that there is some viable truth behind it. If an amputee were healed after years of praying at a shrine to Mary, it would not be evidence for leprechauns or magic; it would be fairly impressive evidence for some viable truth behind the Christian view. Wouldn't it?

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #17

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 16 by Mithrae]
If an amputee were healed after years of praying at a shrine to Mary, it would not be evidence for leprechauns or magic; it would be fairly impressive evidence for some viable truth behind the Christian view. Wouldn't it?
After years of praying, you say...and why couldn't someone say leprechauns or magic? Why couldn't they say something like oh I dunno "Leprechauns/magick work in mysterious ways"?
Do doctors prescribe treatments and continue them for years if there is no tangible result?
How do you know this leg regrowth (if it happened at all) WAS the result of praying to Mary, if it took several years of prayer? Has this been repeated with other amputees? Or are you literally taking a single anecdote as powerful evidence?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #18

Post by benchwarmer »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 16 by Mithrae]
If an amputee were healed after years of praying at a shrine to Mary, it would not be evidence for leprechauns or magic; it would be fairly impressive evidence for some viable truth behind the Christian view. Wouldn't it?
After years of praying, you say...and why couldn't someone say leprechauns or magic? Why couldn't they say something like oh I dunno "Leprechauns/magick work in mysterious ways"?
Do doctors prescribe treatments and continue them for years if there is no tangible result?
How do you know this leg regrowth (if it happened at all) WAS the result of praying to Mary, if it took several years of prayer? Has this been repeated with other amputees? Or are you literally taking a single anecdote as powerful evidence?
I'm with Riku on this one. Perhaps after years of praying to Mary, the leprechauns got fed up and just up and healed the amputee so they wouldn't have to listen to the incessant droning to things that don't exist. If Mary were able to effect the healing, it should only have to have taken one prayer and been instant. Was her hearing aid turned off for years or something?

Perhaps amputees should pray to leprechauns instead and see if they get better service. My bet is that the results will be the same, but who knows.

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Post #19

Post by William »

How do you know this leg regrowth (if it happened at all) WAS the result of praying to Mary, if it took several years of prayer? Has this been repeated with other amputees? Or are you literally taking a single anecdote as powerful evidence?
This is an aspect of Christian argument I have seen before. There is no clear indication that anything GOD can do, the Devil cannot also do, especially when it comes to those who hold different beliefs.

But your question is about knowing rather than believing. If you were the one who prayed to Mary for years for your leg to grow back, and it did, would you be wondering who else might have been the one who answered your prayer, or think that someone saying "it might have been a leprechaun" was worth listening to?

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Re: Reasons for 'belief'

Post #20

Post by Divine Insight »

Mithrae wrote: Not everyone has as much time on their hands as you or I.
That's no excuse for placing faith in ignorance.
Mithrae wrote: Not everyone is as clever as you either. Some folk struggle with fairly basic maths or logic..
So your apology for people of faith is that they are not very clever and struggle with basic math and logic?

This speaks volumes. :D
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

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