Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

[Jagella]

Consider this story from Numbers 15:32-36(NRSV):

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.� The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?

Keep in mind that this man may have been gathering sticks to build a fire to cook for for his family and to keep them warm. After the Bible god had him killed, any wife he had would be left a widow and any children he had would be left without a father to provide for them. They would be left cold, hungry, and facing poverty. Any friends he had among the Israelites would be obligated to kill their friend.

Despite these consequences of Yahweh's order to stone the man to death, all the Jews and by extension all Christians coming later must obey the Bible god. Any objections you have to this cruel act are nothing to Yahweh and may even result in a similar punishment for disobedience to him. You have a god you must believe in and obey without question and without reason.

I predict that few if any of the Christians here will answer this question honestly and sensibly. To post such an answer is to expose Christian beliefs for what they are.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 106 by PinSeeker]

OK, you've demonstrated the barbarism of Christian faith. I rest my case and hope people can understand that Christianity is barbaric and reject it and its barbarism.

This barbarism is indeed included in the foundation Christianity has chosen to build itself upon. It'd be nice to think this is in the past, but given the number of Christians who support this barbarism and have reported they would willingly participate in it if they had the chance, it clearly is a present problem.


When we look to Revelation we see that even worse barbarism is part of the future of Christianity according to the mythology. Past, present, and future barbarism. Hopefully, it will indeed be rejected some day.


Great thread even though many of the responses to it sadly reveal a shocking agreement with senseless brutality.





Tcg

[Elijah John]

Incidentally the command and punishment for working on the Sabbath is meant to teach that we are not saved by works and that works leads to death.

I've seen some creative defenses for the indefensible before, regarding troublesome Bible passages, but this one is really "creative". Do you think that's what Moses had in mind?

If the punishiment should fit the crime, (an ideal professed even by human judicial systems), how does the death penalty for picking up sticks fit this crime?

All this tells me is that Moses seemed incapable of making fine moral distinctions, with his "one punishiment fits all" (or most), retributions. Evidence not of enlightenment, but of barbarism.

[Mithrae]

If the punishiment should fit the crime, (an ideal professed even by human judicial systems), how does the death penalty for picking up sticks fit this crime?

All this tells me is that Moses seemed incapable of making fine moral distinctions, with his "one punishiment fits all" (or most), retributions. Evidence not of enlightenment, but of barbarism.

I'm interested in your thoughts on my post #63 (explaining why punishment/deterrence was necessarily harsher in less sophisticated societies) and particularly post #101 (theorizing why dishonouring the Sabbath was viewed not merely as 'picking up sticks' - obviously not, since the author/s presumably had a vested interest in not pointlessly killing off their own people - but rather directly undermining/dishonouring the pillars both of social cohesion and holiness on which the depicted society's law and order was built).

Is it possible that folk who dismiss the incident as mere 'barbarism' (or worse, from some other people, 'stupidity') run the risk of seeming incapable of recognizing fine distinctions in social order and sophistication?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 106 by PinSeeker]

But that's just it. No Christian today would approve of said "barbarism." That's why everything you say falls flat on it's face.

This has got to be the biggest load of...that I've ever heard. What have I been responding to all this time, if NOT the approval from Christians of this barbarism? Need I remind you that you approved of the law and its sentence in post# 9? In fact, in Post#57, you answered a question of Jagella. Here's Jag's question
But would you really? If the man to be executed was your father, brother, son, or good friend, would you still stone him? And what if that man was you--would you approve of your being executed?

And your response...keep an eye out for the word "approve"
Yes. If I was personally very close to him, I would have been profoundly sad to do it, but I would have approved. And by the way, approval and delight are two very different things. It's very possible to take absolutely no delight in something but approve of it at the same time.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 106 by PinSeeker]

But that's just it. No Christian today would approve of said "barbarism." That's why everything you say falls flat on it's face.

This has got to be the biggest load of...that I've ever heard. What have I been responding to all this time, if NOT the approval from Christians of this barbarism? Need I remind you that you approved of the law and its sentence in post# 9? In fact, in Post#57, you answered a question of Jagella. Here's Jag's question
But would you really? If the man to be executed was your father, brother, son, or good friend, would you still stone him? And what if that man was you--would you approve of your being executed?

And your response...keep an eye out for the word "approve"
Yes. If I was personally very close to him, I would have been profoundly sad to do it, but I would have approved. And by the way, approval and delight are two very different things. It's very possible to take absolutely no delight in something but approve of it at the same time.

I realize that you are purposefully trying reeeeeeeeeeeally hard to blur or even erase the distinction between approving of something that was prescribed (by God) 2500 years ago, and something that is not prescribed by God -- in fact prescribed against; the Bible is crystal clear on this -- today (since 2000 years ago), but that just can't be done. Well, it can't be done with any modicum or semblance of honesty, anyway. An appropriate comparison would be to say Christians today approve of... oh, slavery, or child labor in the U.S., which used to be lawful but now is not. It's not quite a 1:1 comparison with either one of these examples, but generally, it is. Like I said, this "case" is summarily dismissed and this kangaroo court is adjourned.

[dio9]

We are hugely affected by the society and culture we live in. As far back as my studies of civilization go human culture has always been centered on God.
You might say these Egyptian Canaanite or Hindu gods are not our Christian God but without exception religion has always been a central unifying part of human civilizations. I contend Every one of us in the desert with Moses would probably have stoned the man that collected firewood on the Sabbath. We are only as good as the society we live in demands. It is in our interest to live in the best society possible. Jesus called it the Kingdom of God, or the best possible human society. Not all Christians may but I do believe the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of is meant to be of this world. In Jesus' kingdom I would surely not stone the man.

[Tcg]

As far back as my studies of civilization go human culture has always been centered on God.

How far back do your studies go?

You might say these Egyptian Canaanite or Hindu gods are not our Christian God but without exception religion has always been a central unifying part of human civilizations.

Unless you can present evidence from the beginning of human civilization, there is no reason to accept this claim as truthful.




Tcg

[Tcg]

I realize that you are purposefully trying reeeeeeeeeeeally hard to blur or even erase the distinction between approving of something that was prescribed (by God) 2500 years ago, and something that is not prescribed by God --

You've already admitted your approval of God ordained murder. All you are revealing here is your confusion over when it should take place.





Tcg

[1213]

…
This is not in the text. This is a supposition on your part. Apparently unrighteous people, no matter how petty their acts, deserve to die.

It is said elsewhere in the Bible for example:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

That is why it can be supposed that righteousness was also key matter in the judgment. But I agree, it is supposition. However, I think it is better supposition than “God is evil and gives bad judgments�, because it has support in the scriptures.

Look at what this religion has you doing. In real life, you wouldn't presume a person who violates a petty law to be someone working to commit genocide. You wouldn't presume him to be working with the enemies of the nation. You'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

I would give the benefit of the doubt and I would not judge. And actually, the Jews also did so, therefore they went to ask from God what they should do. And I believe God sees well enough to give the right judgment.

However, when this God thing enters the picture, when the law is claimed by others to have come from a God...all that goes out the window. Now you're thinking the absolute WORST of your fellow man. Now you're thinking this man is guilty of the worst crimes imaginable.

It is interesting that you do the same to God. You don’t think there is any possibility that God's judgment was right. You assume the absolute worst from God, please explain why?

[PinSeeker]

You've already admitted your approval of God ordained murder.

No, but rather my approval of the Israelites' prudent observance of God's Law 2500 years ago.

As for God, I approve of whatever He ordains, because it is right, whether I or any other human being thinks so or not. Then and now. As if He requires my approval or anyone else's... LOL!

All you are revealing here is your confusion over when it should take place.

No, but rather my correct understanding of God's purpose regarding His Law 2500 years ago as opposed to now.

You're quite the "funny" fellow...