"The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ."

[Zzyzx]

.
"The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what I say it means."

Many discussions in this Forum come down to or involve semantics – arguing about what the Bible ‘really says or means’

If the Bible is ‘The word of God’ as often claimed, WHY doesn’t it speak for itself – clearly, without need for argument about what it says or means?

If the Bible is NOT ‘The word of God’, but is the word of ancient writers speaking ‘for God’ and giving their opinions or stories about God and events, WHY is the Bible regarded as ‘sacred’ (or inerrant or infallible or whatever is claimed)?

[Zzyzx]

.

Do you want an easy life?

I have an easy life – that I constructed without asking for supernatural help. I have been retired for longer than most people have been alive (since 1980, forty years – US median age 38). My careers were construction worker, Army (3 years), university professor, real estate developer. The latter two were concurrent for one decade – the 1970s. Since then I have been job-free and largely obligation-free.

To be told what to think, and say, and do?

No one tells me what to do. I’m single (and fiercely independent). I do what I darn well please and associate with no one that I dislike or disrespect.

If so, Christianity is not the appropriate religion for you.

Agreed. I rejected Catholicism by age ten

If you want rules, refer to your national constitution.

I respect rules to the extent that I feel that doing so is necessary or in my best interest.

If you want an intellectual challenge, try the philosophy of religion.

My intellectual challenge comes through study of the real world. Fantasy is of no interest.

Law demands; religion provokes.

Perhaps

And they will demand and provoke different things of different people as they make their pilgrimage through life. Whatever, they are not the same thing, and serve different purposes.

People do have their individual responses to laws of society vs. laws of religion.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 40 by 2ndRateMind]

Not at all sure, as a (not very good) Christian, this is entirely the case. Some of my most happy moments have been spent being entirely carnally minded. And I do not think God would begrudge them of me. I guess it's just a case of properly balancing the physical and the spiritual. Neither should preclude the other, overall.

I'm not going to try and define what a Christian should be to anyone. It seems subject to a broad spectrum of interpretation. Hence, "The Bible doesn't mean what it says . . ." ? (to almost everyone, within the realms of Christianity and without)

Personally, I think that a great many professing adherents of Christianity (whatever they imagine that to be) feel like God judges on a sliding scale, with them ahead of the red area, feeling pretty safe in shades of gray.

In the end, I believe, we will all be of one mind... as opposed to the present mindset of antagonistic diversity. But that's another time in a city made without hands.

Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; ... (1 Peter 3:8-9)

We're really not anywhere close to there, yet.

Regards,

Soj

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 38 by Zzyzx]



So you asked a question and based on that question, I used the Bible as my authority... and then you've changed the context of the original...

If the Bible is ‘The word of God’ as often claimed, WHY doesn’t it speak for itself – clearly, without need for argument about what it says or means

I know nothing about any of you... I just know, that in the context of, as YOU said, if the Bible is the Word of God as often claimed... IN THAT CONTEXT, I said there was biblical authorization for JW's response to your question. I'm NOT nor was I, in any way, trying to prove Biblical Authority over your claims there is no god...

I just simply wouldn't do that.

[Tcg]

I'm NOT nor was I, in any way, trying to prove Biblical Authority over your claims there is no god...

Perhaps I overlooked something. Even after double-checking, however, I can't find where Zzyzx claimed there is no god.


Could you be so kind as to provide a direct quote from Zzyzx where he did so?



Tcg

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 34 by Tcg]

What do you know of my life and what specifically do you presume I'd need to change?

Absolutely everything... the way you think.,,, the way you act... the things you value... every thing you think and every thing you do.

No judgement here. I'm not pointing fingers. I don't care what you do or don't do. I don't presume to know anything about you except that I assume you're human, flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God. The carnal mind is at odds with God... For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is at odds with God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)

so there's that...

Your argument seems to boil down to a claim that I refuse to accept biblical claims absent verifiable evidence because of some claimed moral deficiency. You assume that because of my moral deficiency, I am blind to the verifiable evidence you claim to posses, but refuse to present. According to your theory about me, I refuse to accept this unpresented verifiable evidence because it means I would have to change, "Absolutely everything... the way you think.,,, the way you act... the things you value... every thing you think and every thing you do."


Given that you continue to avoid presenting the verifiable evidence you claim to posses, I can only respond to the so called evidence that has been presented to me from others. So far, none of it has qualified as either verifiable or evidence. Plenty of claims as we have seen in this thread, no evidence. I reject the claims not because of a moral deficiency, but because the claims don't hold up under scrutiny.


It would of course be very easy to test your theory that I am morally deficient. Simply present verifiable evidence, and if it truly holds up as such, and if I reject it, you'd have a rather good example of a moral deficient rejecting solid evidence.


If what you have hidden from me so far turns out to be what you claim, I might reexamine my position. We could then clearly evaluate if your response from post 33 when I asked previously what verifiable evidence have you to present? is correct.

• "Nothing you'd accept."

Until that happens, we have no way to determine if I am morally deficient, or if the verifiable evidence you have to present doesn't hold up under examination.



Tcg

[Zzyzx]

.

I'm NOT nor was I, in any way, trying to prove Biblical Authority over your claims there is no god...

Perhaps I overlooked something. Even after double-checking, however, I can't find where Zzyzx claimed there is no god.

Could you be so kind as to provide a direct quote from Zzyzx where he did so?

Thanks Tcg, you beat me to it.

Apologists often become overly zealous and emotional when attempting to defend the Bible from 'Infidels" who dare suggest that it is nothing more than a book of unverifiable tales written by fallible humans. Perhaps attacking by inventing imaginary straw men 'arguments' is acceptable in church or other accumulations of fawning believers (where opposition voices are discouraged or disallowed).

Confronting real live ‘Atheists’ (“All disbelievers look alike to me�) after being accustomed to ‘preaching to a choir’ must be quite a shock. Being asked to substantiate / verify claims and stories – �How dare they question a book I hold sacred�.

If one searches my twenty thousand posts over the past twelve years they will NOT encounter a claim ‘There is no god’ or ‘God does not exist’. What they will encounter is:

ANY of the thousands of ‘gods’ proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exit – awaiting verifiable evidence to show which, if any, are more than products of human imagination.

I will return that to my signature for the edification of the unaware.

Encountering the idea that their favorite ‘god’ is just one among thousands and is not given preferential treatment is often enough to spin some into fits of emotionalism.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 46 by Zzyzx]

what is an apologist?

[Zzyzx]

.

what is an apologist?

Apologist: one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something

Apologetics: the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

What doctrine was I defending?

[Tcg]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

What doctrine was I defending?

Here's a bit from post 36 were you developed your own doctrine that I would need to change, "Absolutely everything...".


You then used a bit of Paul's doctrine to justify your rather unflattering doctrine concerning Tcg.


All of this in an effort to defend JW's doctrine that a Spirit of God exists and is needed to properly understand the Bible.

[Replying to post 34 by Tcg]

What do you know of my life and what specifically do you presume I'd need to change?

Absolutely everything... the way you think.,,, the way you act... the things you value... every thing you think and every thing you do.

No judgement here. I'm not pointing fingers. I don't care what you do or don't do. I don't presume to know anything about you except that I assume you're human, flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom of God. The carnal mind is at odds with God... For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is at odds with God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:6-8)

so there's that...

Tcg