This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[JehovahsWitness]

Plain reading does not call for proof.

That's an ad hoc rule which even if it were true I contest you are not just "plain reading" so you can either proove you are or be prepared for the claim to be dismissed with the same level of proof you have presented, namely zero.


Fair enough?


JW

[Elijah John]

Plain reading does not call for proof.

That's an ad hoc rule which even if it were true I contest you are not just "plain reading" so you can either proove you are or be prepared for the claim to be dismissed with the same level of proof you have presented, namely zero.


Fair enough?


JW

Why don't you prove that Jesus did in deed return in judgement with his Father's angels in the lifetime of his apostles. It is clear that he hasn't. Where in the whole NT does it show he has?

Or if this doesn't mean what it really seems it says, please explain to us what the text really says.

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why don't you prove that Jesus did in deed return in judgement with his Father's angels in the lifetime of his apostles. It is clear that he hasn't. Where in the whole NT does it show he has?

So are we finished with your claim that your views are devoid of any interpretation then? If not I will further await your post, possibly entitled "How what I'm doing is NOT interprtating and how what everyone else is doing is "exotic" (whatever that might mean) interpretation (interpretations from southern climes?... interpretations with deep tans?)...

If we can agree that you interpret Jesus words in one way and others in another depending on how one understands the text, then my work here is done.


Have a most excellent evening,


JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 449 by JehovahsWitness]

No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 449 by JehovahsWitness]

[quote]If we can agree that you interpret Jesus words in one way and others in another depending on how one understands the text, then my work here is done. [/quuote]

Yes, and that usually means we end up having to agree to disagree.

Thanks to this subforum, we can participate in robust debate.

And sometimes we can even be open enough to learn something new and valuable!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 449 by JehovahsWitness]

No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".

The grace of God and the peace of Jesus be with you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 449 by JehovahsWitness]

No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

It means ...

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

There, no interpretation. If you add a comment you will be interpreting the text, so I appreciate your silence.


Well, like I said, unless you would like to add your interpretation of the text, and invite me to add mine, we're done!



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 449 by JehovahsWitness]

If we can agree that you interpret Jesus words in one way and others in another depending on how one understands the text, then my work here is done.

Yes, and that usually means we end up having to agree to disagree.

And I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. What I do have a problem with is one person claiming automatic superiority of view based on a so-called "plain reading of the text".

Such so-called readings are in my experience, often result in ignoring the context, the speakers explicit intention, and more often than not actual words used. That and the strictly literal reading such claimants resort to, is much like a child asking: where the candle went when he hears that the candle "went out". In short their conclusions are often the exact opposite of the writer's stated intentions.

Bible literists, imho, like these "plain meaning" claimants make nonsense of the text,. For atheists with an agenda, only too eagre to claim the bible says water has legs because it refers to a "running" brook, this should be expected, but to be taken down by friendly fire is less amusing. In short, far from being superior to "exotic" "gymnatic" interpretations, those that claim they are not interpreting only display a lack of basic understanding of words and literature (everything short of the telephone directory is open to interpretation*) . * When faced with any word or phrase a reader is faced with the choice if taking it literally or symbolically/ figuratively; once a choice is made so has an interpretation. There is no default position that systematically favours one over the other.

The bible is a book that demands interpretation (whether literally or figuratively) and to fail to recognise this is to do a gross disservice to the depth of meaning of the words in one of the most influential set of writings in human history. And that I have a problem with!



JW




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THE BIBLE , HERMENEUTICS* and ... BEST TRANSLATION

* bible interpretation

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 449 by JehovahsWitness]

No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".

The grace of God and the peace of Jesus be with you.

In my Bible verses 27 and 28 are in the same paragraph. Same paragraph, same subject. The way I read it Jesus was speaking of his 2nd coming in verse 27. How do you read ir?

And in 28 he was referring to his contemporary listener, "some standing here".

Jesus still has not returned in judgement with his Father's angels. Are his contemporaries still alive?

Having said this, I see what you mean. I did a little research and yes, some versions have v 27 +28 in different paragraphs. Others, including the ASV, RSV, NRSV, NJB, have the two verses in the same paragraph.

But that would indeed make a world of difference. Was Jesus shifting topics here? Almost like stream of consciousness? Or not.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 449 by JehovahsWitness]

No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".

The grace of God and the peace of Jesus be with you.

In my Bible verses 27 and 28 are in the same paragraph. Same paragraph, same subject. The way I read it Jesus was speaking of his 2nd coming in verse 27. How do you read ir?

And in 28 he was referring to his contemporary listener, "some standing here".

Jesus still has not returned in judgement with his Father's angels. Are his contemporaries still alive?

Having said this, I see what you mean. I did a little research and yes, some versions have v 27 +28 in different paragraphs. Others, including the ASV, RSV, NRSV, NJB, have the two verses in the same paragraph.

But that would indeed make a world of difference. Was Jesus shifting topics here? Almost like stream of consciousness? Or not.

It would and it does.

Paragraphs reflect the decisions of translators, as does punctuation. Some make better decisions than others.

Verses and chapters arrived many centuries after scripture did.

These are all valued and greatly assist us, but can, at times, be misleading.

I think this passage (and its surrounds) is a very good example.

What matters is that texts are put in their right contexts. That is, in the end, what we readers have to decide.

I will next explain my decisions on the scripture we are looking at.

Grace and peace.