Which god is God?

[SallyF]

Many, many cultures have imagined God in many, many ways. Certain cultures declare everyone else's idea of God to be false.

How do we objectively determine whose version of God is NOT false?

[Swami]

I've been meditating for twenty years. I honestly don't think I've been doing it "wrong" this whole time.

So then you know it all. Letting go is not a problem.

For a state that involves letting go of all thought and expectations (because they can distract and restrict), your beliefs against the experience play no role nor influence (even unconsciously) on your mind. Is this correct? You label yourself "anti theist" and "apatheist" so I'm only going based on that.

You see, some people may think meditation is just about clearing the stuff at the forefront of your mind, but it can also take clearing your mindset, as well. Don't simply let go of the thoughts running through your mind but also let go of your "mind frame". Eastern philosophy helped me with both but more so with the latter.

Just as you are content in proclaiming that you experienced something. Is it wrong for me to say that I experienced nothing? Am I automatically doing something wrong if I say I experienced nothing, is that the incorrect answer?

I don't question you for not having experienced, but what I question is if you're open to experiencing in the first place. The issue from here is not that the experience can't happen but rather that some do not want it and don't put in the work for it. This is where I catch all of the so-called skeptics.

Perhaps your anti-religious stance may also play a role.

Does your pro-religious stance play a role in what you say you experience? Why this snide insinuation that I am subconsciously affecting what it is I experience/don't experience, but all the while you don't ask yourself the same thing?

I am not religious. I am spiritual, yes. I admit that I read a little on the Eastern approach and about OBEs, before having them. But they worked in the end to help me clear my mind and get into these experiences. The experiences are valid. I've found that Eastern philosophy best explains it so I've been studying it ever since.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 131 by Razorsedge]

So then you know it all.

Yes. For something that has to do with my mind and solely my mind, then yes, I would know it all, and not some other person.

your beliefs against the experience

Hey, I never said I never let go of all thought and expectation. I said I didn't experience what you say happens to you after. This transcendence you talk about...not me. Hence my skepticism on the matter and why I'm one of the ones asking for evidence.

play no role nor influence (even unconsciously) on your mind. Is this correct?

Maybe. Maybe not. Who can say they truly know or understand themselves, right down to the smallest facet of their minds?

You see, some people may think meditation is just about clearing the stuff at the forefront of your mind, but it can also take clearing your mindset, as well. Don't simply let go of the thoughts running through your mind but also let go of your "mind frame". Eastern philosophy helped me with both but more so with the latter.

Been there, done that, bought the Tshirt.
Anything else?

but what I question is if you're open to experiencing in the first place.

This sounds to me like questioning whether I'm the problem whenever I brought up praying to God when in conversation with other Christians, and they wonder why I say God never answered. They make it out like I'm the one at fault, and deny even the concept that maybe their initial claim is untrue.

but rather that some do not want it and don't put in the work for it. This is where I catch all of the so-called skeptics.

After nearly twenty years of meditation, how does it make sense to imply I haven't put in the work?

I am not religious. I am spiritual, yes. I admit that I read a little on the Eastern approach and about OBEs, before having them. But they worked in the end to help me clear my mind and get into these experiences. The experiences are valid.

And mine aren't?

[Clownboat]

I've been meditating for twenty years. I honestly don't think I've been doing it "wrong" this whole time.

So then you know it all. Letting go is not a problem.

For a state that involves letting go of all thought and expectations (because they can distract and restrict), your beliefs against the experience play no role nor influence (even unconsciously) on your mind. Is this correct? You label yourself "anti theist" and "apatheist" so I'm only going based on that.

You see, some people may think meditation is just about clearing the stuff at the forefront of your mind, but it can also take clearing your mindset, as well. Don't simply let go of the thoughts running through your mind but also let go of your "mind frame". Eastern philosophy helped me with both but more so with the latter.

Just as you are content in proclaiming that you experienced something. Is it wrong for me to say that I experienced nothing? Am I automatically doing something wrong if I say I experienced nothing, is that the incorrect answer?

I don't question you for not having experienced, but what I question is if you're open to experiencing in the first place. The issue from here is not that the experience can't happen but rather that some do not want it and don't put in the work for it. This is where I catch all of the so-called skeptics.

Perhaps your anti-religious stance may also play a role.

Does your pro-religious stance play a role in what you say you experience? Why this snide insinuation that I am subconsciously affecting what it is I experience/don't experience, but all the while you don't ask yourself the same thing?

I am not religious. I am spiritual, yes. I admit that I read a little on the Eastern approach and about OBEs, before having them. But they worked in the end to help me clear my mind and get into these experiences. The experiences are valid. I've found that Eastern philosophy best explains it so I've been studying it ever since.

People reading may want to consider this study done on meditation in case they feel some of it is at play here in this thread and to just be more informed about the process.

The following findings come from a 2017 study published in the peer-reviewed journal PLOS One.
https://www.insider.com/why-meditation- ... thinking-1
(Not going to list them all...)

It may prompt negative thinking:
Nearly half of the participants in the 2017 study experienced delusional, irrational, or paranormal thoughts caused by meditation, as well as a change in executive function, the ability to control yourself and get things done.

A study conducted at Seattle Pacific University in 2009 echoed these findings, showing that participants also felt delusional due to meditation.

Motivation may go right out the window:
According to the 2017 study, meditation can also lead to you losing interest in activities that you previously enjoyed, akin to the effects of depression.

This lack of interest could come as a result of non-attachment, a common skill many meditators strive for, according to Psychology Today.

You might re-live negative memories and emotions:
Those who participated in the 2017 study reported feeling panic, anxiety, fear, paranoia, depression, and grief.

On top of that, subjects in the 2009 study reported re-living traumatic experiences in the form of flashbacks.

You might experience some physical side effects:
Subjects in the 2017 study say they felt negative changes all throughout their systems, including pain, pressure, involuntary movements, headaches, fatigue, weakness, gastrointestinal problems, and dizziness.

It might damage your sense of self:
Participants in the 2017 study reported feeling a loss of agency, a loss of sense of basic self, and a loss of ownership. Plus, many indicated that they felt the boundaries blurring between themselves and the rest of the world.

You may become antisocial:
Meditation may be about getting in touch with yourself, but it can also change the way you interact with others — and not in a good way.

Nearly half reported having trouble integrating back into society after intensive practice or a meditation retreat. Others say they felt so socially impaired that it actually had a negative impact on their occupations as well.

[Swami]

Clownboat,

This is a very unreasonable way of informing people. Your article says that there are numerous studies that show totally opposite results but you did not post this information. Also, Seattle Pacific University, which is a source for some of the studies in the article is a Christian University. I'd be surprised that they would label OBEs and other paranormal perceptions as "hallucinations" when the Bible details people hearing voices from the heavens, even apostle Paul had an OBE.

I've talked to many Christians who call my beliefs "demonic" simply because it goes against their belief.

People reading may want to consider this study done on meditation in case they feel some of it is at play here in this thread and to just be more informed about the process.

The following findings come from a 2017 study published in the peer-reviewed journal PLOS One.
https://www.insider.com/why-meditation- ... thinking-1
(Not going to list them all...)

It may prompt negative thinking:
Nearly half of the participants in the 2017 study experienced delusional, irrational, or paranormal thoughts caused by meditation, as well as a change in executive function, the ability to control yourself and get things done.

A study conducted at Seattle Pacific University in 2009 echoed these findings, showing that participants also felt delusional due to meditation.

Motivation may go right out the window:
According to the 2017 study, meditation can also lead to you losing interest in activities that you previously enjoyed, akin to the effects of depression.

This lack of interest could come as a result of non-attachment, a common skill many meditators strive for, according to Psychology Today.

You might re-live negative memories and emotions:
Those who participated in the 2017 study reported feeling panic, anxiety, fear, paranoia, depression, and grief.

On top of that, subjects in the 2009 study reported re-living traumatic experiences in the form of flashbacks.

You might experience some physical side effects:
Subjects in the 2017 study say they felt negative changes all throughout their systems, including pain, pressure, involuntary movements, headaches, fatigue, weakness, gastrointestinal problems, and dizziness.

It might damage your sense of self:
Participants in the 2017 study reported feeling a loss of agency, a loss of sense of basic self, and a loss of ownership. Plus, many indicated that they felt the boundaries blurring between themselves and the rest of the world.

You may become antisocial:
Meditation may be about getting in touch with yourself, but it can also change the way you interact with others — and not in a good way.

Nearly half reported having trouble integrating back into society after intensive practice or a meditation retreat. Others say they felt so socially impaired that it actually had a negative impact on their occupations as well.

[Clownboat]

Clownboat,

This is a very unreasonable way of informing people. Your article says that there are numerous studies that show totally opposite results but you did not post this information. Also, Seattle Pacific University, which is a source for some of the studies in the article is a Christian University. I'd be surprised that they would label OBEs and other paranormal perceptions as "hallucinations" when the Bible details people hearing voices from the heavens, even apostle Paul had an OBE.

I've talked to many Christians who call my beliefs "demonic" simply because it goes against their belief.

I referenced a relevant peer reviewed study.
That you find it to be an unreasonable way to inform people is on you.

Please notice that I'm not making any claims and I'm certainly not saying that meditation doesn't have positive affects either, just offering peer reviewed information on the subject.

You harp on about people 'trying it out' so to speak. You may disagree, but I think that people should be informed as much as possible beforehand.

If there are risks, don't you think it prudent that people are made aware of the possible risks? Offering peer review seems a much better route then just claiming that other peoples experiences are wrong like I am seeing going on here. Your milage may vary of course.

[Swami]

Clownboat,

This is a very unreasonable way of informing people. Your article says that there are numerous studies that show totally opposite results but you did not post this information. Also, Seattle Pacific University, which is a source for some of the studies in the article is a Christian University. I'd be surprised that they would label OBEs and other paranormal perceptions as "hallucinations" when the Bible details people hearing voices from the heavens, even apostle Paul had an OBE.

I've talked to many Christians who call my beliefs "demonic" simply because it goes against their belief.

I referenced a relevant peer reviewed study.
That you find it to be an unreasonable way to inform people is on you.

Please notice that I'm not making any claims and I'm certainly not saying that meditation doesn't have positive affects either, just offering peer reviewed information on the subject.

You harp on about people 'trying it out' so to speak. You may disagree, but I think that people should be informed as much as possible beforehand.

If there are risks, don't you think it prudent that people are made aware of the possible risks? Offering peer review seems a much better route then just claiming that other peoples experiences are wrong like I am seeing going on here. Your milage may vary of course.

Please keep in mind that there is an entire culture that values meditation. There are a lot of Buddhists and Hindus in the Eastern hemisphere. To paint them all (you didn't but others might) with the negatives you brought up would be a clear sign of cultural bias and intolerance.

In all of my experiences with meditation not once have I experienced anything negative or harmful. In yogic scriptures, there are some admonitions against seeking after some of the occult powers (siddhis) for personal gain. But beyond that, the practice is positive and harmless.

[Clownboat]

Please keep in mind that there is an entire culture that values meditation.

Please don't run with scissors, eat yellow snow or kick your dog.

There are a lot of Buddhists and Hindus in the Eastern hemisphere. To paint them all (you didn't but others might) with the negatives you brought up would be a clear sign of cultural bias and intolerance.

You're still addressing things that have not happened here.

In all of my experiences with meditation not once have I experienced anything negative or harmful.

Others have. Your experience as we have pointed out does not alter the experiences of others.

In yogic scriptures, there are some admonitions against seeking after some of the occult powers (siddhis) for personal gain. But beyond that, the practice is positive and harmless.

Peer review shows us otherwise. It does affect some members of the human species in negative/harmful ways.

I personally don't have a problem with it.

[Swami]

[Replying to post 137 by Clownboat]
It's good to see that you are not personally against it. I only recommend it for people who want to discover the nature of consciousness. When people have NDEs and OBEs, it tends to be spontaneous or involuntary. If they were anything negative/harmful, then I wonder why would the Christian God allow them to happen beyond the person's control. If people want to know how to bring these experiences on voluntarily, something which not even the apostle Paul knew about, then meditation is a reliable tool for that.

Yogic/Hindu text
Yoga Vasistha (one of the major Hindu texts) Book III On Creation- Chapter 21 — Saraswati Explains the Practice of Meditation, Astral Travel (OBEs)
* http://yogavasishta.org/book3a-ch1-60.html

27 What is this body and from where does it come? What is its existence or destruction? What is lasting remains forever and is freed from the ignorance it had before.

28 Rama said, “Does the embodied soul takes a spiritual form or is it something else? Tell me this and remove my doubt.�

29 Vasishta said:—

I have told you this repeatedly, my good Rama! How is it that you do not understand it yet? There exists only the spiritual body and the material form is nothing.

30 It requires a habit of constant meditation in order to know your spiritual state and subdue your sense of materiality. As you abstain from your sense of materiality, so you attain the spiritual state. 31 Then there will be an end of your sense of gravity and solidity of objects, like the visions of a dreaming man disappear when he awakens.

32 The body of a yogi becomes as light and subtle as the impermanent appearances in a dream.

[Falling Light 101]

I believe that religion and following any god or creator - should be centered around helping people and doing good toward one another.

If the creator made us, then we should honor his creation.

[Don McIntosh]

[Replying to post 104 by Don McIntosh]

But I will grant you this: phrases like "the propaganda of the Jesus cult" do pack a certain rhetorical punch, even if the evidence for Christianity is clearly not propaganda and a religion of over two billion followers is clearly more than a cult.

propaganda[ prop-uh-gan-duh ]SHOW IPA
EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGIN
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR propaganda ON THESAURUS.COM

noun
information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.
Roman Catholic Church.
a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV, having supervision over foreign missions and the training of priests for these missions.
a school (College of Propaganda) established by Pope Urban VIII for the education of priests for foreign missions.
Archaic. an organization or movement for the spreading of propaganda.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/propaganda?s=ts

The writings of the Jewish organisation propagating the doctrines and principals of their leader Joshua/Jesus as their Anointed One/Messiah/Christ clearly fit the definitions of propaganda.

It was even an official term used by the planet's largest Christian organisation.


Not a soul EVER offers a scrap of any sort of evidence that so much as a single verse came in any way from any version of "God".


I put it to you that the term "propaganda" is accurate.



cult[ kuhlt ]SHOW IPA
EXAMPLES|WORD ORIGIN
SEE MORE SYNONYMS FOR cult ON THESAURUS.COM

noun
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:
the physical fitness cult.
the object of such devotion.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/cult?s=t

I put it to you that the definitions of "cult" are accurate descriptions of the numerous versions of Christianity.


I put it to you that when what is now regarded by some as the "New Testament" section of the "Word of God" was first written, Christian Judaism was regarded by the mainstream religions as a cult - a "pernicious superstition" according to Tacitus.


Christian teachings may be one thing, but the "New Testament" fits very accurately and firmly as "cult propaganda".

Well, I do agree that by choosing selected definitions of words, you can associate an opposing position with certain irrational or unappealing concepts and therefore cast it in a worse light. That's what I meant by "pack a rhetorical punch." Of course I can do the same thing. Consider for example:

My old desk dictionary, Merriam-Webster's Tenth Collegiate, defines an atheist as "one who denies the existence of God." That same dictionary then offers this definition of deny: "5: to refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of." So it could be argued that according to a dictionary definition, an atheist is one who simply refuses to accept the existence of God or the truth of his existence.

It gets worse. My dictionary also defines denial in these terms: "6: a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality." Thus, by carefully selecting the definitions of the words used in turn to define what an atheist is, I can prove that atheism is really a psychological defense mechanism by which atheists avoid confrontation with the reality of God's existence.