Christianity Defined

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Jagella
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Christianity Defined

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

I found an internet meme courtesy of Richard Carrier that provided what might be described as a clothes-off definition of Christianity. My paraphrase of that definition is the following:
  • Christianity - the belief that some cosmic Jewish Guy-in-the-Sky who got a virgin pregnant with himself without a penis can make you live forever if you pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood and also tell him telepathically that you accept him as your master to be obeyed at all cost even to the point of death the purpose of doing so being to have him remove an independent, self-sufficient attitude from your mind that all people are born with and need to survive because a woman born as a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat some fruit growing on a tree that magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil.
(Note that the vast majority of scholars are completely convinced that the Jewish Guy urging symbolic cannibalism and vampirism existed although many of them do not insist that his being in the sky and getting a virgin pregnant with himself is necessarily historical.)

Question for Debate: Can anybody here point out any inaccuracies in this definition?

Yes, it's an absurd idea, but it is what Christians believe!

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Post #71

Post by John Human »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 68 by John Human]
"the purpose of doing so being to have him remove an independent, self-sufficient attitude from your mind that all people are born with and need to survive" -- could you please cite chapter and verse for that one?
It really does astound me that people are just not familiar with their own religions, when dumbed down and spelled out in plain language.

Psalm 40
As for me, since I am poor and needy, let the Lord keep me in his thoughts. You are my helper and my savior. O my God, do not delay.
Psalm 27
"For he will hide me in his shelter in the day of trouble; he will conceal me under the cover of his tent; he will lift me high upon a rock."
Psalm 32
"The LORD says, I will guide you along the best pathway for your life. I will advise you and watch over you."

What is it I have been told over and over by Christians will happen to me and people like me and Jagella if apparently we don't choose God? Why...we will get hell, which (according to some Christians) is an eternal void, a loneliness. If I remain independent in my view on life, self-sufficient attitude, this is a bad thing apparently, I can't have this, I need God.

"convinced by a talking snake to eat some fruit growing on a tree that magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil." (emphasis added)
Again, some people just can't take the text and read it as it is written.
Genesis 2:9 NIV
"The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground"trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
v16-17
"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
Chapter 3:4-7
"You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."
As I have discussed before, this phrase is a metaphor for sexual experience, with the Biblical myth depicted as first masturbation and then (as Eve shares her initial experience with Adam) fornication.
The text does not say this. The text says they became aware of good and evil after eating a magic fruit (such a thing is not uncommon with religious creation mythology, with common items having cosmic effects). There is no mention of sexual matters other than them becoming aware that they are naked.
No-one here has any reason to believe what you said, regarding masturbation and fornication.
In general, I'd say you are welcome to present your interpretation of various Biblical passages forthrightly, as I have done. You have provided chapter and verse to support an interpretation that I do not agree with. In light of your toxic hostility to Christianity, and in light of your renewal of your viciously absurd vilification of Christians who accept what they believe to be Jesus's willing sacrifice on behalf of all of us, I suspect that discussion between you and me of the relevant disagreement here would be a waste of time. In due course I will respond to Jagella, who is of a similar mind to yours.

Once again, you started a thread to announce that you were leaving this forum. Be gone.

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Post #72

Post by Zzyzx »

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John Human wrote: Once again, you started a thread to announce that you were leaving this forum. Be gone.
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Post #73

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 71 by John Human]
In light of your toxic hostility to Christianity,
Christianity is hostile to non-believers. Just check out what they say happens to non-believers. Heck, the Jehovah's Witnesses sect looks forward to an Armageddon where billions of people die.
I think my stance is of lighter concern than that, don't you think?
and in light of your renewal of your viciously absurd vilification of Christians who accept what they believe to be Jesus's willing sacrifice on behalf of all of us,
If your best friend wandered off to commit suicide by cop tomorrow, would you do anything at all to stop him, or would you stand back and allow it all to play out, because you think you'll end up with some of his belongings?
I suspect that discussion between you and me of the relevant disagreement here would be a waste of time. In due course I will respond to Jagella, who is of a similar mind to yours.
If Jag is of a similar mind to mine, why say you'll respond to him and not me? What's the difference?
I notice that in all this, you have not rebutted my comments regarding Christianity. You've just acted offended and wagged your finger and said how dare you.
Be gone.
I did...for a few weeks. Then got pulled back in.
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Post #74

Post by JehovahsWitness »

rikuoamero wrote:
... the Jehovah's Witnesses sect looks forward to an Armageddon where billions of people die.
Excuse me! But I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I can assure you we don't look forward to anybody dying!

We are taught to be loving and kind ( not hostile) to everyone even those that are unkind to us and I have never read in any of our literature or heard in any of our bible classes anyone that expressed a desire that people die. More than that you will never find anything that even hints that we enjoy the notion of hatred, violence or the death of any people.

Indeed we spend many billions of hours in unpaid volunteer work helping people to live and offering aid during natural disasters and emergencies. Jehovah's Witnesses live by the command from our leader that we must love our neighbours like ourselves and millions of people that have friends, family members, partners or workmates that are JWs can testify that isn't just rhetoric. We live our religion, and our religion is based on love, love of God and live of neighbour.

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I don't know what this discussion is about and I don't care to, but I do insist on clearing up this point. Since JWs are a minority, it's misunderstandings like this that leads to acts of violence against our women and children, something I'm sure the good people of this forum abhor.

Thank you for your time,


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS






[youtube][/youtube]

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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:43 am, edited 10 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #75

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 74 by JehovahsWitness]

JW says
Excuse me! But I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I can assure you we don't look forward to anybody dying!
From the JW website where the question asked "What is the Battle of Armageddon"
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... t_index]=4

"The battle of Armageddon refers to the final war between human governments and God. These governments and their supporters oppose God even now by refusing to submit to his rulership. (Psalm 2:2) The battle of Armageddon will bring human rulership to an end."Daniel 2:44."

"Who will fight at Armageddon? Jesus Christ will lead a heavenly army to victory over Gods enemies. (Revelation 19:11-16, 19-21) These enemies include those who oppose Gods authority and who treat God with contempt"

"What will conditions be like during the battle of Armageddon? While we do not know how God will use his power, he will have at his disposal weapons such as those he has used in the past"hail, earthquake, flooding downpour, fire and sulfur, lightning, and disease. "

From
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... t_index]=5

"What the Bible teaches: God will not allow humans to bring the earth to ruin. The Bible assures us that Jehovah * did not create the earth simply for nothing. Rather, he formed it to be inhabited. (Isaiah 45:18) Instead of allowing the earth to be totally despoiled by humans, God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth."Revelation 11:18."

"What the Bible teaches: Armageddon is not a haphazard destroyer of communities. Instead, during Armageddon, only the wicked will be wiped out. The Bible promises that soon the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be."Psalm 37:10."

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... t_index]=6

"Jeremiah 25:33 reveals the magnitude of this destruction of the ungodly: Those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth.

Why is Armageddon necessary? The nations refuse to acknowledge Gods sovereignty, but they proclaim their own. (Psalm 24:1)"

"Thus, this global war is associated with Christs presence, which Bible prophecies show is now here.

Armageddon will destroy only the incorrigibly wicked, and there will be a great crowd of survivors."

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... _index]=10

", the Maker of the earth will take action"at the Biblical Armageddon! (Revelation 11:18) This war, therefore, will accomplish what God-fearing men throughout the ages could only hope for. It will vindicate the rightful rulership of earths Owner, Jehovah God, over all his creation.

Thus, Armageddon is not to be feared by people who love righteousness. Rather, it provides a basis for hope. The war of Armageddon will cleanse the earth of all corruption and wickedness and open the way for a righteous new system of things under the rule of Gods Messianic Kingdom."

__________________________________________

JW, I have the words of your group, your religion, your holy book. Just like I have the words of other Christians on this site. Your group has already expressed, in positive terms, a looking forward to of a cosmic battle they call Armaggedon, where those whom they call evil, or corrupt, or wicked, are killed, perhaps to the tune of billions. Heck, there is an article on your website called "Armaggedon is Good News!"

The fact that your religion teaches you to be peaceful and kind (not hostile) only shows to me a double think going on. I do not dispute that this is what you are taught. However, do not play games with me as if JWs do not look forward to a Battle of Armaggedon where potentially billions die. I have text like the above in abundance.
I call that hateful towards non-believers because it is! Look at what you and they are saying. Those who do not believe in your religion are apparently evil, or wicked, or sinful, apparently going to array themselves in open rebellion against your god...and your god will apparently kill the lot of them.
Imagine if I was part of a group that said something similar. The Rikuoamerians believe that within the next few decades, our champion, Rikuoamero, will slaughter all those who believe in a god.
Doesn't matter if Rikuoamero teaches the amerians to be good and kind - the group has professed a belief that their leader is going to wage a bloody war against all those who believe something different to him.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #76

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 75 by rikuoamero]


... where does any of that say we look forward to people dying?






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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #77

Post by rikuoamero »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 75 by rikuoamero]


... where does any of that say we look forward to people dying?






JW
Seriously? How about "it provides a basis for hope". "The war of Armageddon will cleanse the earth of all corruption and wickedness " How about the fact that this battle will be prosecuted and fought by your lord and master, Jesus Christ? How about the fact that JW literature refers to people who are judged evil/wicked/sinful being wiped out (as per the examples I gave up above) with the only survivors being those who stay loyal to Jehovah/Jesus?
If you can post some counter-examples, some text from the JWs where they lament the battle, where they wish their god would not wage this battle, or would do something other than wage war...then the discussion can continue. Otherwise, all I'm seeing are JWs...looking forward...to a worldwide conflict...where people die.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #78

Post by JehovahsWitness »

rikuoamero wrote:... all I'm seeing are JWs...looking forward...to a worldwide conflict...where people die.
I can do nothing about what you "see" but where does any of that say we look forward to people dying?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Post #79

Post by rikuoamero »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 77 by rikuoamero]

I can do nothing about what you "see" but where does any of that say we look forward to people dying?
What is it you require? A "Gee willikers! I really really look forward to when our god, when our saviour lord comes back and kills all those who who don't worship our god!"? Do you need to see someone twirling their mustasche like a comic villain while saying this?
I've read those texts, and I honestly dont see how they can be anything other than expressions of looking foward to a global battle that could potentially see millions or billions killed. Do you repudiate your god, your Jesus Christ, his plan to wage this war?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #80

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 79 by rikuoamero]

I am asking if you can produce a statement of any description that proves Jehovah's Witness look forward to people dying?




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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