If Christianity is false

Mithrae · Post by **Mithrae** » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:23 pm

How many Christians are only in it for the promised rewards, whether in heaven or supposed answers to all their prayers?

Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 wrote that "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable," a passage which was quoted and liked by a couple of Christians in response to the recent thread wondering what if Jesus was wrong about things. But that seems a rather strange view to me, as if the Christian God were commanding his followers to do terrible, arduous things that they'd never dream of doing without the threat of hellfire looming over their heads. In another recent thread suggesting that 'theists' are unaware of their burden I argued that (at least in the view of Matthew's author and even many non-Christians) even Jesus' commands to stop storing earthly possessions, stop working for money and instead trust in God for one's daily bread are viewed as ultimately liberating, regardless how difficult the initial decision may be. As Matthew's Jesus says, "my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

But even for Christians who don't follow those teachings of Jesus...
Do you get any kind of good moral framework out of your religion? Or would you suddenly start stealing, lying and cheating on your partner if you thought there was no God?

Have you gained any friendships or do you otherwise value whatever community engagement you get out of your religion?

Do you find any encouragement or inspiration from proven, unproven or even fictitious stories about Jesus or other followers of your God?

If you weren't a Christian would you suddenly stop enjoying that good feeling of giving money to worthy causes?

I'm just wondering, if there were no God, no Jesus and no miracles, would that actually be a good reason to stop being a Christian, for those who currently are? Or would it just be a reason to adopt a more 'liberal' approach to your religious tradition?

William · Post by **William** » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:30 pm

[Replying to post 39 by Tcg]

Thanks for the heads up.

I was momentarily distracted by my granddaughter. I will post again... the mods can delete post #37 if they wish.

Cheers
W

William: Following the discourse since my last post in this thread, I am wondering now if non-theists who actively attempt to turn Christians from their faith, are unwittingly attempting to enable potential offending which The Christ has assisted in preventing?

Mithrae: As indeed you must, if you really believe all the stories of God slaughtering every living human but eight, God slaughtering tens of thousands of Egyptian children, the Israelite genocide against the Midianites, the Israelite genocide against the Canaanites, the Israelite genocide against the Amalekites, God slaughtering seventy-thousand of his chosen people because they dared discover the falsehood of his promise that they would be numberless, God slaughtering forty-odd youths because they laughed at a bald man, and God once again (really, really soon) eventually slaughtering every living human but the small minority who "love" him.

William: Perhaps the need for a realistic GOD in relation to interacting with brutish humanity - specifically the Israelite as they proved to be the most susceptible to the demands of an Invisible Entity calling Itself - among His many names, the title of "God"...

...this brought brutish humanity under His command, and in doing so, prevented a far more horrific unfolding to have taken place than what actually did.

The greater point of the 'perhaps' argument I make, is that if any are actively trying to convert those types away from I AM. then this can't be a good thing inevitably, especially if it could actually work.
I say - "Let those who will, believe in their faith in Jehovah or Jesus do so uninterrupted." because this will at least ensure the world does not become an even worse place to experience.

Mithrae: I suppose we really do have to take you at your word when you repeatedly suggest that you have such contempt for your fellow man as to whimsically murder them, if ever you come to believe that your deity's command to restrain yourself has been rescinded.

William: Which is why I think it is important to not muck with it.
"If it ain't broke - don't fix it."

Mithrae: The implication of course is that you only profess 'love' for others under duress, under the threat of hellfire and desire for heavenly bliss, because at this point in time Yahweh commands 'love' rather than murder.

William: It's a start. No thing is written in stone. The lessons continue in The Next Phase, and the quality of a persons Love, will be further worked on then.
If one could develop ones 'love' to a point where one can accept such a notion, one loses the urge to judge another, and Love blossoms forth from that...One becomes and expression of Love, rather than of 'love'.

Mithrae: Thankyou for the answer to the first question of the OP, at least. I certainly hope you never discover the falsehood of your religion...

William: "Let sleeping dogs lie."

Mithrae:...or decide that Yahweh is once again calling his followers to violence.

William: My general understanding is that Christians who profess belief in The Kingdom of God, would be opposed to following someone claiming to be from Yahweh and demanding his followers to act with violence.
The violent aspect of The Father (referred sometimes as "I AM"), ended at the temporary sacrifice of Jesus.

"It Is Finished". "Let It Be."

Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:30 am

Ask any random Christian on the street why they believe in Jesus? they won't tell you that they came to believe he's the Messiah based on the study of the Hebrew scriptures. Any truth a Christian orifesses as true MUST the upheld by the Hebrew scriptures.

So why are Christians Christian? Ask why they believe in Jesus? Why they love Jesus? Because he died for their sins and they're going to heaven because of it. The religion is based on what they want. To live forever. Christianity isnt about making God smile. Theyd sooner let God kill an innocent person than give up eating their bacon. Or so they believe thats what God did.

Imagine how God's heart must break knowing people say such horrible things about him. I'd sooner perish than say God allowed himself to be spit on and hung up to die. Then yes tn jewelry of the event and wear it. Half naked God hanging on a cross. Pretty low opinion of God. Why would they want to go to heaven anyway God is there. He's there with his laws just like he is here. If they wanted to be with God they be with him here but they don't they hide behind Jesus. Or whoever the one called Jesus is

JJ50 · Post by **JJ50** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:41 am

As the Biblical god character is supposedly responsible for creating human nature, it should have been hanging from the cross for screwing up so badly.

Aetixintro · Post by **Aetixintro** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:41 am

JJ50 wrote: As the Biblical god character is supposedly responsible for creating human nature, it should have been hanging from the cross for screwing up so badly.

Why are you so quick to pass the judgment on God? There is indeed the Devil who is the agent for evil! Why don't you blame the Devil instead? Not anywhere in the Bible does it say that God created the Devil! You do not seem apt for your own words on God to be blunt!

Mithrae · Post by **Mithrae** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:19 am

Aetixintro wrote: Not anywhere in the Bible does it say that God created the Devil!

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:27 am

Mithrae wrote:
Aetixintro wrote: Not anywhere in the Bible does it say that God created the Devil!
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I don't see the word "Devil" in the scripture. In fact the word "devil" or "Satan" is nowhere to be seen in the text referred to here.

JW

William · Post by **William** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:22 pm

Aetixintro : Not anywhere in the Bible does it say that God created the Devil!

Mithrae: Colossians 1:15

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

JehovahsWitness: I don't see the word "Devil" in the scripture. In fact the word "devil" or "Satan" is nowhere to be seen in the text referred to here.

William: JW - IF The Satan actually exists, THEN, along with everything which has not been 'referred' to in the script, Angels are nowhere to be seen in the text either.
The script claims that Jesus is the manifested image of the GOD, and IN his mind, all THINGS were created through him and FOR him.
The script does not refer to anything specifically detailed in that creative process, so unless you are arguing that The Satan does not actually exist, then one has to conclude that Jesus created The Satan.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:34 pm

[Replying to post 47 by William]

Since, as you said specific individuals or groups are not mentioned, any conclusions are indeed suppositions. Suppositions based on ones interpretation of the text; for example, whether "all things created" are synonymous with all things that presently exist or can something or someone created change into something/one else?

JW

[youtube][/youtube]

RELATED POSTS

Is Satan omnipotent?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p848009

What does the bible say about the origins of Satan the Devil?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#p891940

Why didn't God destroy Satan immediately?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p845975

Does the bible not speak of God creating evil (Isaiah 45:7; Ex 32:14)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 07#p906407

Can Satan be described as mentally ill?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p939655

Could the Devil have inspired the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 87#p355187

Can the Devil pretend to be good?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p828001

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

ANGELS , DEMONS and ... SATAN THE DEVIL

Post by **Tcg** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:11 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 47 by William]

Since, as you said specific individuals or groups are not mentioned, any conclusions are indeed suppositions.

Not when the claim includes this phrase: "For in him all things were created."

Unless you are arguing that "all" means something other than "all."

Tcg

Mithrae · Post by **Mithrae** » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:47 pm

Tcg wrote: Unless you are arguing that "all" means something other than "all."

In fairness, that does tend to be the Christian position when it comes to Jesus' insistence that "none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions."

These really are quite remarkable interpretive gymnastics whereby 'God created all things on heaven or earth, visible or invisible' becomes 'not all things were created by God' and 'you must give up everything to be my disciple' becomes 'just say a prayer and imagine yourself giving stuff up.' Edging back a little closer to the thread topic, such a *ahem* creative approach to the things which Christians want to believe to be true perhaps further underlines my contention that for most if not all pragmatic purposes, here and now in this life, it doesn't particularly seem to matter what is actually true about God or Jesus. In most cases we don't have a situation in which core Christian doctrines (whatever those may be, from Christian to Christian) are demonstrably false; but they are all unprovable, subject to criticism and above all subject to a vast range of different interpretations and emphases.

Christians find happiness and fulfillment in their particular beliefs and expression of their faith even though they could be (and according to other Christians clearly are) grievously wrong in their views. Obviously therefore, it not the correctness of their metaphysical speculation or indoctrination on the nature of Jesus or God that they're getting satisfaction from: So I see no very obvious reason why a person would abandon the Christian community and cultural trappings underlying much of their happiness and fulfillment, even if they did one day decide that the metaphysical speculation was incorrect.

Debating Christianity and Religion

If Christianity is false

If Christianity is false

Ask any random Christian....