Is your sin "Original"?

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polonius
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Is your sin "Original"?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

Another bible fiction which became rather pervasive in Christianity is the claim of the "stain" of Original Sin (the first sin of Adam) of which we all bear the guilt even though we were born thousand of years after it was committed.

Because we all have this "stain," a "merciful God"(?) damns the unbaptized to spend eternity suffering in hell even infants who die. Or so the story goes.

Later on it was agreed that this was rather harsh, so the unbaptized not guilty of any serious sin were consigned to 'Limbo" a state of "natural happiness" in which, however, the person is denied the beatific vision of God which was important for some reason.

Many Catholics and Protestants haven't kept up so don't realize that Pope Francis abolished it obviously because it was realized that it was a fiction.

However, the full effect of this hasn't been felt yet. The Catholic Church's "doctrine" of Mary's Immaculate Conception is also void if there is no Original Sin to begin with. ;)

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Re: Is your sin "Original"?

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Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote:Except the word "already" isn't in the scripture.

ADAM -> SIN [ to the world ] -> SIN -> DEATH
Ahhh, the case of the missing word...not a new one,eh?

I agree and it is not in the scripture at Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned [already], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. but

it is implied in both places to make, which makes, the theology free from the blasphemy that GOD created all of mankind evil in Adam! What did you or I ever do to deserve being created like that??

If the non-elect are condemned already (already meaning before, ie pre: pre-death, pre-life on earth, pre-the creation of the earth???) it stands to reason that the sinful elect are also fallen already though the main message is that they are never condmened though sinful.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Is your sin "Original"?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

ttruscott wrote:
it is implied in both places to make....
I don't see that it is. Indeed since there is nothing in the bible that implies humans have an existence before they are conceived. Nor, that they are created immortal, not that we have a conscious existence (soul) that is transferred into a physical body, it seems to me that presuming Adam sinned before he was born is baseless.


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #13

Post by ttruscott »

Peds nurse wrote: I believe in original sin. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, sin entered the world through them. It is theit original sin that is the downfall of man, and which continues generation after generation.
Good morning, Peds nurse, it's been awhile eh?

I now start with accepting GOD's attributes at full face value and comparing all of theology to that revelation. I did not come to Bible study in this way...when I saw a contradiction to HIS love I had to search for a meaning and orthodoxy gave me suggestions and where orthodoxy of all the sects came together the meaning was impossible to resist. The weight of 2000 years (or 4000 for OT studies) is too much.

The two doctrines I have quit believing are reconciled with HIS goodness (loving and righteous in justice) by erudite sophistry are:
1. GOD (who would not create Satan evil) created HIS Bride (and every other human) evil by making them humans in Adam's line when there was no reason for HIM to do this. It is written GOD is light for a reason and that reason is that light cannot create dark! It is impossible because by its essence light destroys dark. Dark is created when someone turns against the light and blocks the light...which GOD CANNOT do as a house divided against itself cannot stand, not even by using a surrogate sinner to apply his sin to HIS creation.

People are willing to believe that GOD cannot create evil, then they allow themselves to be persuaded that in our creation GOD DID have us created evil by creating us human and by having us humans inheriting from Adam his sin.

That we are conceived or born as sinners must be explained but choosing a blasphemy is UNNECESSARY when another method of our being sinners at the moment of our being human is available...ie, we had a pre-earth life as spirits and in that life all those would become human chose to be sinners in HIS sight, either eternally sinful or temporarily sinful.

Why choose a blasphemy over the simple fact of our creation that it was before earth was created, not on earth? Is the denial of our pre-conception existence so important?? Just because some old men made a political decision about 350 AD?

The other doctrine I have quit believing is reconciled with HIS goodness (loving and righteous in justice) by erudite sophistry is:
2. that GOD knows all things that can be known from eternity past to eternity future because this implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! which is a blatant rejection of the scripture that claims HE does not want anyone to die and takes no pleasure in the death of even the wicked while HE does all things for HIS pleasure. It is also not just a disregard for HIS attributes of being lovingly just but it destroys the meaning of those attributes if we accept this blasphemy!

This blasphemy is also not necessary when the bible itself tells us what is contained in what HE knows: Acts 15:18 Known unto GOD are all HIS works from the beginning of the world. All HIS works are HIS decrees of creation. From the beginning of the world does NOT extend into the eternal past...but why let a little thing like scripture interfere with our understanding?

IF HE created us with a free will but did NOT create the results of our free will decisons, HE would then not know them - I still get a shiver of yikes when I write that, so strong is the orthodox blasphemy in me even after 30 years.

It is an indictment of orthodoxy that they chose to accept this pagan Greek wisdom definition of HIS omniscience that is a blasphemy just because of their idolatry of all things Greek.

My faith in the GOODNESS of GOD will not be eroded any more by the lies of orthodoxy that GOD knowingly created people to go to hell and then made, created, them to do so by making them inherit another person's sin! Not only is this AGAINST SCRIPTURE* but it is against all reason that HE would create HIS BRIDE as evil and disgustingly corrupt (by any means) so that her best is as filthy rags just to have to heal her and then start the marriage!

*Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child (human) will not share the guilt of the parent (Adam), nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

Jeremiah 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Is your sin "Original"?

Post #14

Post by 2timothy316 »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
ttruscott wrote:
it is implied in both places to make....
I don't see that it is. Indeed since there is nothing in the bible that implies humans have an existence before they are conceived. Nor, that they are created immortal, not that we have a conscious existence (soul) that is transferred into a physical body, it seems to me that presuming Adam sinned before he was born is baseless.


JW
Speaking of something being implied, John 3:16 says, "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."
It seems that God's Word has just 'implied' that people are not born with eternal life. If A&E and all of their descendants already have everlasting life, then Jesus' death was for nothing.

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Re: Is your sin "Original"?

Post #15

Post by polonius »

historia wrote:
polonius wrote:
Many Catholics and Protestants haven't kept up so don't realize that Pope Francis abolished it obviously because it was realized that it was a fiction.
Your argument here is unclear. What is "it" that Pope Francis has abolished?
RESPONSE:
Limbo where unbaptized infants go if they die.

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Post #16

Post by Peds nurse »

ttruscott wrote:
Peds nurse wrote: I believe in original sin. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, sin entered the world through them. It is theit original sin that is the downfall of man, and which continues generation after generation.
ttruscott wrote:Good morning, Peds nurse, it's been awhile eh?
Hello ttruscott!! I do hope all is well with you. It has been too long!
ttruscott wrote:I now start with accepting GOD's attributes at full face value and comparing all of theology to that revelation. I did not come to Bible study in this way...when I saw a contradiction to HIS love I had to search for a meaning and orthodoxy gave me suggestions and where orthodoxy of all the sects came together the meaning was impossible to resist. The weight of 2000 years (or 4000 for OT studies) is too much.

The two doctrines I have quit believing are reconciled with HIS goodness (loving and righteous in justice) by erudite sophistry are:
1. GOD (who would not create Satan evil) created HIS Bride (and every other human) evil by making them humans in Adam's line when there was no reason for HIM to do this. It is written GOD is light for a reason and that reason is that light cannot create dark! It is impossible because by its essence light destroys dark. Dark is created when someone turns against the light and blocks the light...which GOD CANNOT do as a house divided against itself cannot stand, not even by using a surrogate sinner to apply his sin to HIS creation.

People are willing to believe that GOD cannot create evil, then they allow themselves to be persuaded that in our creation GOD DID have us created evil by creating us human and by having us humans inheriting from Adam his sin.

That we are conceived or born as sinners must be explained but choosing a blasphemy is UNNECESSARY when another method of our being sinners at the moment of our being human is available...ie, we had a pre-earth life as spirits and in that life all those would become human chose to be sinners in HIS sight, either eternally sinful or temporarily sinful.

Why choose a blasphemy over the simple fact of our creation that it was before earth was created, not on earth? Is the denial of our pre-conception existence so important?? Just because some old men made a political decision about 350 AD?
I had to read that several times, and I'm not quite sure I understood it in its fullness. I understand that God cannot create evil because it goes against Him being light. However, God did create angels and one of them rebelled and took 1/3 of the heavenly hosts with him. If God is all knowing, then God knew this was going to happen. So, why did he create us anyway? Because He loves us, and for those who choose to be His, we are totally worth it. I do not know of scripture that supports us being in a pre-conception state.
ttruscott wrote:The other doctrine I have quit believing is reconciled with HIS goodness (loving and righteous in justice) by erudite sophistry is:
2. that GOD knows all things that can be known from eternity past to eternity future because this implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! which is a blatant rejection of the scripture that claims HE does not want anyone to die and takes no pleasure in the death of even the wicked while HE does all things for HIS pleasure. It is also not just a disregard for HIS attributes of being lovingly just but it destroys the meaning of those attributes if we accept this blasphemy!
What if God created people who rejected Him for His purpose and glory? Were all the people in David's lineage up to Christ, followers of God? Did not some stray? Yet all of them led to David which in turn, led to Christ. He knows who will reject Him, but it does not mean that they serve no purpose in this world. God created us with the purpose of having a relationship with Him, despite our sinful nature.

ttruscott wrote:IF HE created us with a free will but did NOT create the results of our free will decisons, HE would then not know them - I still get a shiver of yikes when I write that, so strong is the orthodox blasphemy in me even after 30 years.
He did not create us to sin? I agree, but He did create us with free will, of which He knows before hand in whom we choose, because all names are written in the book of life.
ttruscott wrote:faith in My the GOODNESS of GOD will not be eroded any more by the lies of orthodoxy that GOD knowingly created people to go to hell and then made, created, them to do so by making them inherit another person's sin! Not only is this AGAINST SCRIPTURE* but it is against all reason that HE would create HIS BRIDE as evil and disgustingly corrupt (by any means) so that her best is as filthy rags just to have to heal her and then start the marriage!
He did not create people to go to Hell, He created people in His image. Some choose not to take that image. Sin is passed down from generation to generation. There was the tree of good and evil in the middle of the garden. Adam and Eve could have chose not to eat of the fruit, but they did. They had to be pretty close to the tree to hear the serpent. The bottom line is that once the knowledge of good and evil was passed to us, we can choose good, or we can choose what is evil. No one is exempt from this. God knows the evil in our hearts, which is why He sent a savior. If we were not corrupt, why the need for Jesus?

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Re: Is your sin "Original"?

Post #17

Post by 2ndRateMind »

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]

Can't honestly say that my own sins are particularly original. Mostly, they score amongst the seven deadly; pride, lust, sloth, wrath, avarice, gluttony and envy, which were all identified by the early Church fathers way back in history. If there is any saving grace amongst them, it is simply that 'it takes one to know one', and that my own sins allow me to sympathise with others who also suffer as I do.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Post #18

Post by ttruscott »

Peds nurse wrote:I had to read that several times, and I'm not quite sure I understood it in its fullness. I understand that God cannot create evil because it goes against Him being light. However, God did create angels and one of them rebelled and took 1/3 of the heavenly hosts with him. If God is all knowing, then God knew this was going to happen. So, why did he create us anyway?
Good morning; thanks for the reply though I was not specifically querying you but using your post as a springboard to ask my questions, so please don't feel badgered...

The point for me is not "Why create us?" but why create the Satanic? Creating US (those who will be in heaven with HIM) is fine and our free will allowing us to choose to sin is an absolute necessity but...

BUT for what reason did HE choose to create those HE knew would end in hell, not heaven? Scripture says HE does everything for HIS pleasure YET HE takes no pleasure in the death, specifically the eternal death of hell, of anyone: Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? with 1 Timothy 2:4...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. etc.

Does not Lamentations 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. imply death and suffering is not what HE wanted when HE created us but HE is FORCED by circumstances to afflict us and grieve us? How could this be true if it is also true that HE knew before our creation who needed such chastisement and who would make choices that would end them in hell? All HE had to do to keep hell empty was to NOT create those HE knew would end in hell.

So far I have only found one righteous answer that fits HIS self revealed attributes, that is, HE must not have known who would end in hell before they made the decision that led to this end. This no brainer is so easy we wonder why it is not part of our common thinking about HIM. It is dismaying to find that the definition of omniscience used by the Church is a pagan overlay on biblical considerations. There are many statements that HE knows everything about this creation but where are the verses that claim HE knows everything pre-creation?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #19

Post by ttruscott »

Peds nurse wrote:He did not create people to go to Hell,
I know orthodox theology but how can this be true if HE knew they would end in hell FOR CERTAIN before He created them?

HIS intent may not have been that they end in hell but if hell is so bad, how can it be said HE loved all HIS creation equally or loved those known pre-creation to end in hell at all? Why is it so important to believe HE knew their end before creation that we need to dump HIS self revelation about HIS loving righteousness?

It used to be this was considered a mystery, that is, a true conflict of doctrine that could not be solved but these days it seems like it is considered solved when it is just the common acceptance of opposites as being both true at the same time, ie, doublethink.

Orthodoxy knows and accepts GOD wouldn't (couldn't) have lovingly created the Satanic knowing they would inevitably end in ETERNAL hell yet we also know and accept HE did just that!

Well, I consider that the solution that lies in a redefining of what HE knows to conform to biblical parameters ie from the beginning of creation AND NOT TO ETERNITY PAST to be proper and adequate.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Is your sin "Original"?

Post #20

Post by polonius »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius]

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell, purgatory, limbo or the immaculate conception of Mary (the mother of Jesus), none of these things are bible teachings.

The bible does however speak of all becoming sinners because of Adam (see Romans 5:12).

JW
RESPONSE: Yes. That is the basis of Augustine's blunder in creating the "original Sin" fiction.
;)

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