Is your sin "Original"?

[polonius]

Another bible fiction which became rather pervasive in Christianity is the claim of the "stain" of Original Sin (the first sin of Adam) of which we all bear the guilt even though we were born thousand of years after it was committed.

Because we all have this "stain," a "merciful God"(?) damns the unbaptized to spend eternity suffering in hell even infants who die. Or so the story goes.

Later on it was agreed that this was rather harsh, so the unbaptized not guilty of any serious sin were consigned to 'Limbo" a state of "natural happiness" in which, however, the person is denied the beatific vision of God which was important for some reason.

Many Catholics and Protestants haven't kept up so don't realize that Pope Francis abolished it obviously because it was realized that it was a fiction.

However, the full effect of this hasn't been felt yet. The Catholic Church's "doctrine" of Mary's Immaculate Conception is also void if there is no Original Sin to begin with.

[Peds nurse]

I had to read that several times, and I'm not quite sure I understood it in its fullness. I understand that God cannot create evil because it goes against Him being light. However, God did create angels and one of them rebelled and took 1/3 of the heavenly hosts with him. If God is all knowing, then God knew this was going to happen. So, why did he create us anyway?

Good morning; thanks for the reply though I was not specifically querying you but using your post as a springboard to ask my questions, so please don't feel badgered...

The point for me is not "Why create us?" but why create the Satanic? Creating US (those who will be in heaven with HIM) is fine and our free will allowing us to choose to sin is an absolute necessity but...

BUT for what reason did HE choose to create those HE knew would end in hell, not heaven? Scripture says HE does everything for HIS pleasure YET HE takes no pleasure in the death, specifically the eternal death of hell, of anyone: Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? with 1 Timothy 2:4...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. etc.

Hello ttruscott! I hope this finds you well!

It is not for His pleasure, but for His purpose. What is God's purpose? I cannot claim to know exactly, but according to scripture, is it not that He wants to be our God, and we His people? In doing so, He can use all people to accomplish that purpose, to those who believe, and to those who do not. Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and through that His power was displayed. Judas, betrayed Jesus, God used that so that we might be saved. He desires all men to be saved, but that does not mean that they are or will be.

Does not Lamentations 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. imply death and suffering is not what HE wanted when HE created us but HE is FORCED by circumstances to afflict us and grieve us? How could this be true if it is also true that HE knew before our creation who needed such chastisement and who would make choices that would end them in hell? All HE had to do to keep hell empty was to NOT create those HE knew would end in hell.

It is not His desire that any would perish. This does not mean that they will not. In Psalms 139, it says that all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. This must mean that God knows before hand how our lives will play out. We as a people can choose not to follow God, to reject Him. Do you think that would be a surprise to God of those who do?

So far I have only found one righteous answer that fits HIS self revealed attributes, that is, HE must not have known who would end in hell before they made the decision that led to this end. This no brainer is so easy we wonder why it is not part of our common thinking about HIM. It is dismaying to find that the definition of omniscience used by the Church is a pagan overlay on biblical considerations. There are many statements that HE knows everything about this creation but where are the verses that claim HE knows everything pre-creation?

In Psalms 139, it says that His eyes saw our unformed body. If that is so, then He knew us before anyone in the world did! I cannot think anything would be a surprise to God. I find comfort in that. On my worst day, He knew in advance, and prepared great strength for my soul.

[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Yes. That is the basis of Augustine's blunder in creating the "original Sin" [theology] ...

Can you explain how that was? ie what link you believe Augustine made between the idea of an original sin and the immaculate conception and what his expressed rationale was?

Thanks,


JW

[polonius]

RESPONSE: Yes. That is the basis of Augustine's blunder in creating the "original Sin" [theology] ...

Can you explain how that was? ie what link you believe Augustine made between the idea of an original sin and the immaculate conception and what his expressed rationale was?

Thanks,


JW

RESPONSE: I'm afraid that not possible. Augustine wrote in the 4th century and the Immaculate Conception story wasn't invented until about 750 AD

[ttruscott]

It is not His desire that any would perish. This does not mean that they will not.

Of course it doesn't. And I'm not arguing against that.

But they will NOT perish because HE created them to perish because HE knew they would perish and thought so little of their eternal suffering HE created them anyway.

Which doctrine upholds HIS GOODNESS the highest? That HE would not create people HE knew would end in eternal hell or that HE would create them...for no known reason? I think for an act with such huge consequences and theological implications about HIS character HE would explain HIMself a lot more clearly on this issue yet we are left to make things up, to guess why HE did what we think HE did. Surely that should give us pause that we got something wrong?

[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Yes. That is the basis of Augustine's blunder in creating the "original Sin" [theology] ...

Can you explain how that was? ie what link you believe Augustine made between the idea of an original sin and the immaculate conception and what his expressed rationale was?

Thanks,


JW

RESPONSE: I'm afraid that not possible. Augustine wrote in the 4th century and the Immaculate Conception story wasn't invented until about 750 AD

So upon what basis do you make your claim?

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell, purgatory, limbo or the immaculate conception of Mary (the mother of Jesus), none of these things are bible teachings.

All of the things you listed, (except limbo which has always been presented as a theory from theologians but never declared as teaching of the Church) are supported in the Bible AND it is important to note however that the Bible alone is not our authority " THAT is actually ironically not Scriptural. Christ established His Church and told us to listen to her. He also gave His Church authority to interpret Sacred Scripture. In fact, His Church gave us the Bible!

Original Sin along with teaching on purgatory, hell, and the immaculate conception have all been revealed to us via Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (the Church).

[onewithhim]

To reiterate....When Adam and Eve began to die, as God told them they would, their perfection was gone and because they could not pass perfect DNA on to their children, their children inherited imperfection and death.

Please provide a reference to scripture that mentions DNA. A connection with any mention of a perfect DNA would be a bonus.



Tcg

Tcq: The Bible isn't going to mention DNA per se any more than it would mention airplanes or rocket ships. Our God-given brains can take the information given in the Bible (to technically un-savvy people at the time) and draw logical conclusions.

Just HOW would sin and death be transferred to Adam's off-spring? The Bible says it WAS, and we are accepting the Bible as our authoritative source, are we not? So how does that happen? How do blue eyes and red hair get passed down to children? DNA, right?

So obviously Adam and Eve's DNA had to be altered, after they rebelled, so that they would die (as they were warned would happen).

Apparently you disassociate the Bible with real happenings. Is it just a bunch of stories to you?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 26 by RightReason]

Do you feel inclined to present the scriptural support for these dogma ie biblical references? ( It would be interesting to include official church definitions of these teachings)


JW

[onewithhim]

Many Catholics and Protestants haven't kept up so don't realize that Pope Francis abolished it obviously because it was realized that it was a fiction.

Your argument here is unclear. What is "it" that Pope Francis has abolished?

RESPONSE:
Limbo where unbaptized infants go if they die.

Wow, then all the other popes were wrong? LOL! Where are all the unbaptized infants NOW that they said were in Limbo?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius]

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in hell, purgatory, limbo or the immaculate conception of Mary (the mother of Jesus), none of these things are bible teachings.

The bible does however speak of all becoming sinners because of Adam (see Romans 5:12).

JW

RESPONSE: Yes. That is the basis of Augustine's blunder in creating the "original Sin" fiction.

It wasn't Augustine who "created" the original sin idea. The whole Bible is written around it.