What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

... this entity seems sinilar to the spirit, if we talk of the spirit departing the body.

#1) What about my question is the spirit RUACH (The spirit, not *a* spirit, as in an angel/spirit creature) but a "person's spirit" that animates him or her and is also scripturally the same spirit in animals....is that ever spoken of in scripture as having blood , reproducing* and eating ie being physical? Do you feel inclined to answer this question?

* souls reproduce according to their kinds


#2) Does the bible really apply* the same word translated as "soul" (NEPHESH ) to animals?

• * I'm not speaking of how it should be translated (indeed sometimes it is translated as "creature", sometimes , as "beast" "living thing"... but in all the verses below, no matter which translation it is always without exception being APPLIED to a flesh and blood animal.
  
  
  ANIMALS ARE CALLED SOULS
  

  GENESIS 1:24
  
  And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, yea, work beasts, and reptiles, or creeping beasts, and unreasoning beasts of the earth, all after their kind; and it was done so - WYC

  NUMBERS 31:28
  And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep - KJVA

  SOUL Nephesh (The Hebrew equivalent of psykhḗ ) is used to refer to animals in twenty-two passages in the bible:
  
  Genesis 1:20, 21,24, 2:19; 9:10,12; Leviticus 11:46. Leviticus 11:10; Ezekiel 47:9. Genesis 1:20, 30. Genesis 9:4; Deuteronomy 12:23 ; Proverbs 12:10. "beast", Leviticus 24:18, Job 41:21. "fish", Isaiah 19:10. Refering to both humans and animals : "creature". Genesis 9:15, 16. Leviticus 17:11, 14, Numbers 31:28

  
  Source The Holy Bible, Hewlett, 1811[/quote]

The answer to these two questions will help clarify where the two words differ and lead to an accurate understanding of whether human consciousness survives the death of the body....




JW

[RightReason]

[Replying to William]

You continue to repeat these words (which by the way are not based on something Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition have ever taught) :

The Church was not given The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, so it stands to reason that her Children would also have no idea.

In fact, the following Scripture contradicts your statement. And your attempt to brush it aside doesn’t work. It is there in the Bible as well as taught and confirmed by Christ’s Church

The Script: Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness – the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.

RightReason: I’m wondering if you were in fact thinking these revealed secrets would be more of an intellectual or academic knowledge?

William: Those things the Church can teach.

What I am referring to is knowledge the church is unable to teach.
What I am referring to is knowledge the sheep are generally afraid to enter into.
What I am referring to is the same as what Jesus is referring to.
Knowledge through experience.

Please cite the Scriptural evidence where Jesus refers to knowledge through experience. How do you not recognize this theory of yours is not based on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or historical record? This is your personal theory you present and it is contradicted from what we are actually told, as the passage I cited shows. As well as all of these passages from the Bible . .. .

Ephesians 3:10
So that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Matthew 7:24-27
“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

1 Timothy 3:15
If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Proverbs 19:20
Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.

Daniel 2:47
The king answered Daniel and said, "Surely your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, since you have been able to reveal this mystery."


Colossians 1:26
that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

Ephesians 3:5
which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:3
that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.


Uuummmm . . . quite a bit of Scripture contradicting your statement.

The Script: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter. …

Sure, Jesus was condemning those who shut the kingdom of heaven for themselves and others. How does that in any way suggest knowledge and secrets were not revealed to those whom Christ entrusted? Everything I posted shows knowledge and secrets are revealed.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 390 by marco]

And yet God endowed Solomon with wisdom, and Solomon had 1000 wives and concubines.

Your example proves my point. Have you been away from the Church too long Marco? Do you forget what happened to Solomon?

Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, neither shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.� Solomon held fast to these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. For it came about when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 1 Kings 11:1-4

Yes, it was the culture of the time to be permitted to have multiple wives. We’ve had this discussion before Marco. God, due to our hardness of hearts and stubbornness has allowed us to continue in ways that are not always to our benefit. God warned Solomon his wives would turn him away from Him. And what do you know? God was right again.

We rise above the dust by the wisdom of our dead brothers

Again, you make my point. We are often called to rise above the stupid mistakes of those who came before us – that is exercising wisdom. But one should never rise above wisdom, even though sadly we do. We think we know better. We think we have nothing to learn from those who came before us.

Most get it all right. It is not hard to appreciate good poetry.

No, but clearly it is hard to recognize edifying poetry that lifts man’s heart to God and empty words that titillate in the moment, but fade with time.

They understand, from their own experience, the utter joy of the father who saw his prodigal son at a distance. The crucial difference is they do not see that heaven plays a necessary role in forgiveness, in helping the poor, in being good to the weak.

It’s easier to see those things when we hear story after story of all the fathers who do not openly await their wayward sons with open arms. We increasingly see from those who renounce God and have no heavenly hope less of a forgiving nature. Unfortunately, those stories are the more common. Could man forgive, be good, and help the poor without God? Sure, it can happen because quite frankly it is written in the world we live in and God is the author of that world and yet the further man gets from God, the less prodigal son stories we hear about. Instead we get today’s bumper sticker, “I’m spending my kid’s inheritance�

[ttruscott]

Knowledge through experience.

Hmmm...Is Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. pertinent?

[William]

RightReason: I’m wondering if you were in fact thinking these revealed secrets would be more of an intellectual or academic knowledge?

William: Those things the Church can teach.

What I am referring to is knowledge the church is unable to teach.
What I am referring to is knowledge the sheep are generally afraid to enter into.
What I am referring to is the same as what Jesus is referring to.
Knowledge through experience.
Such as what occurs when one enters the Gate To the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Script: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter. …

ttruscott: Is...

The Script: When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

ttruscott:...pertinent?

William:Is one aware of wisdom without knowledge?
It appears that some are unable to integrate the information that Jesus taught the Disciples so much more than he ever taught the Church.
A thirst for knowledge is what reveals otherwise hidden things. The Church may be regarded as harboring those who fear certain types of knowledge, choosing that such knowledge is hidden from them.
Jesus was and is aware that certain individuals are afraid, and that is essentially the reason he appointed the Disciples to manufacture the Church, that those types of people would have somewhere they could remain safe in good beliefs which would serve them mercifully well enough through the next phase of their experience

Acquiring knowledge through experience rather than through being told and accepting things on faith, is simply for those who have learned how to face uncertainty and find out for themselves.
Often hard knocks accompany such attitude, but always reward for seeing it through re compensates.

[William]

@

William: The Church was not given The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, so it stands to reason that her Children would also have no idea.

RightReason: In fact, the following Scripture contradicts your statement. And your attempt to brush it aside doesn’t work. It is there in the Bible as well as taught and confirmed by Christ’s Church

The Script: Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness – the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.

William: What was Paul referring to when he made mention of this mystery? Was it anything to do with The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven?

RightReason: Please cite the Scriptural evidence where Jesus refers to knowledge through experience. How do you not recognize this theory of yours is not based on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or historical record?

William: I have already done so.
1: Jesus told his disciples that The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven was not for the general public because the general public was not interested in such knowledge.

2: Jesus did so many things in private with his Disciples that they only gave the bare-bones information to the general public.

3: It is more than reasonable to conclude from these two ideas, AND with the history of Christendom, that the Church was not privy to The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven because its members do not wish to be.
Jesus knew this to be the case, which is why the Disciples mentioned him saying:

The Script: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter. …

RightReason: This is your personal theory you present and it is contradicted from what we are actually told, as the passage I cited shows.

William: No it is not a personal theory of mine. It is knowledge based upon personal experience coupled with the clues that the Disciples left within the script.
As I have pointed out, the passage you cited has no actual information of what Paul was referring to. As such, it is inadequate in upholding your argument against my own.

RightReason: As well as all of these passages from the Bible . .. .

The Script: So that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.


William: This informs us that there are Rulers and Authorities in the Kingdom of Heaven who have observed the goings on of the Church throughout its history and make informed evaluations regarding what is seen therein.
This in effect is the many and various aspects of GODs Wisdom, manifested through the Rulers and Authorities in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Script: Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

William: This speaks of what wisdom? It is unclear from the context.
Certainly on its own, it does not serve as any evidence that the Church has the authority to sit in Judgement and to condemn.

The Script:] Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock

William: Again, insufficient context, which does not serve as any evidence that the Church has the authority to sit in Judgement and to condemn.

The Script: If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

William: This only goes to show that the Church was indeed created in order to create a safe place in which individuals can harbor beliefs which will allow them a safe place in the next phase of their existence.
Certainly it does not make any claim that the Church has the authority to sit in Judgement and to condemn.

The Script: Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future.


William: In relation to The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, such advice and instruction does not and cannot come from the Church, and must be sought elsewhere, as The Holy Ghost directs.

The Script: The king answered Daniel and said, "Surely your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, since you have been able to reveal this mystery."


William: This has to do with Jesus, not the Church. The King is not saying this about the Church but about Jesus.

The Script:...that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,


William: Yet again, insufficient context, which does not serve as any evidence that the Church has the authority to sit in Judgement and to condemn.

The Script: which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

William: In relation to the Disciples revealing that Jesus taught them many things which they did not pas on to the Church, this is more evidence supporting that fact.

The Script: ...that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.


William: And yet again, insufficient context, which does not serve as any evidence that the Church has the authority to sit in Judgement and to condemn.

RightReason: quite a bit of Scripture contradicting your statement.

William: As has been shown, there is no contradicting my position of argument in relation to the script. Confirming my position of argument, yes - the script does this.

The Script: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter. …


RightReason:Sure, Jesus was condemning those who shut the kingdom of heaven for themselves and others. How does that in any way suggest knowledge and secrets were not revealed to those whom Christ entrusted?

William: I never said it wasn't. Jesus reveals The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven to all who genuinely want to know about them. The referencing of the Scribes and Pharisees was to warn those seeking the knowledge, that there will be opposition from those who choose to remain ignorant of the knowledge as well as using their position within the Church to try to prevent - mostly through false argument and through dissuasion - anyone else from having access to said knowledge...AND that the opposition would come from withing Organised Religions...just as it had been at the time in history when Jesus spoke that warning to the Scribes and Pharisees.

RightReason: Everything I posted shows knowledge and secrets are revealed.

William: On the contrary. What it does show is that there are indeed actual Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven which the individual seeker can obtain through experience. The Script points to that, but certainly those scripts you quoted to which I commented have no context, cannot be said to be revealing anything except that there is hidden knowledge the individual can obtain through experience...
You have not proven at all that the Church - nor the Bible itself - is the vessel/medium in which The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven is obtained from. On the contrary, the Script clearly implies that the knowledge is sourced elsewhere.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 386 by marco]

What in the bible is usage of RUACH and "BREATH of life" and the soul?





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[JehovahsWitness]

Meanings overlap. Matthew 16: 26 "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" speaks to me of a division between body and soul, the soul part being the more precious..

Many I have met have felt this way but that usually turns out to be Catholic indoctrination from childhood. (As I often say you can take the man out of the church but not the church out of the man...)..in any case some have had to analyse things for the very first time when they stumble across new information, namely that the bible word translated into the English word SOUL is applied to flesh and blood animals and humans and that human SOULS die.

God made clay into a nephesh and for some poetic reason called the clay Adam.

Emphasis MINE


This is true. Yes the SOUL nephesh was the physical (clay) man.

We can say: "Some poor souls were forced to eat human flesh" and someone might respond: But how can the immortal soul eat if it is a spirit? It probably can't. But soul is being used as person.

Correct again. What was Adam? .., just an inanimate body? No, even atheists that don't believe in the existence of a spiritual realm don't go to morgues, pull out dead bodies and say that mass of cells and cold flesh is the person, they know that's a body and that the "person" is gone. What is the missing "component"? Was Adam the SOUL animated by another inanimate SOUL stuffed inside him. What changes a body into the person (soul/nepohesh)?

LIFE

Even a child (if his head hasn't been messed with by years of indocrinisation) knows what is missing is that the body isn't alive, life is missing. When a person (a soul) dies, its life goes. This is as true a description for the atheist as it is for the theist. (The only difference between the two is what is the source of that life) . It is not the soul that animates the soul, that is linguistic nonsense, it is something else... (ergo the different words SOUL and SPIRIT) and it takes years of going to church make this logical and lexical distintion incomprehensible.

As for where "the overlap" is, since life is an abstract concept, even in English, we sometimes employ metaphor.


To be continued ....

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from #post 398 by JehovahsWitness


MANY CONFUSE SOUL AND SPIRIT BECAUSE THE BIBLE SOMETIMES USES FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE

METONYMY

Metonymy is a type of figurative language in which an object or concept is referred to not by its own name, but instead by the name of something closely associated with it. .. Metonymy in literature often substitutes a concrete image for an abstract concept. "Heart" can be used to mean "love," or "grave" to mean "death."

....or ... SOUL to mean "life" .

There is no doubt whatsoever that the scriptures refer to a SOUL as a flesh and blood living breathing human (or animal), something concrete. That said, sometimes the bible "substitutes the concrete image (of the flesh and blood person) for the abstract concept of the person's LIFE" so just as it might say "heart" (the organ) to refer to "love," (the emotion felt by the person), it will say "soul" the person, to refer to "life" the condition experienced by the person. Let us take the example found in GENESIS 35:18 which recounts the death of Rachel.

King James Bible
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

The literal reading in Hebrew is that her "SOUL" was going out, meaning her life was ebbing away. Most translators understand this use of METONYMY and render the verse .

Christian Standard Bible
With her last breath--for she was dying--she named him Ben-oni, but his father called him Benjamin.

Contemporary English Version
Rachel was at the point of death, and right before dying, she said, "I'll name him Benoni." But Jacob called him Benjamin.

This no more means a SOUL is "sometimes" material sometimes immaterial than it does that a heart sometimes an organ and sometimes an emotion. A heart is ALWAYS a flesh and blood organ but writers know what a metaphor is.

CONCLUSION In an effort to support the pagan teaching of man having an "immortal soul " many religious teachers have attempted to ignore the biblical use of the word NEPHESH ("soul") in favor of one based on a a misapplication of idiomatic expressions, metonym and figures of speech.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

DO JESUS WORDS IN MATTHEW 16:26 INDICATE THE SOUL CAN SURVIVE THE DEATH OF THE BODY?

MATTHEW 16: 26

"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Firstly Jesus made absolutely no mention of body in this passage. What he did do is mention #1) a man, and #2) "his soul". Jesus He did not ask "what shall A BODY give in exchange for his soul?" but what should a man (a person) give.

But if a person *is* a soul how can he give his soul? Isn't that like asking a person who *Is* a Postman if he would give away .... his postman ?

Jesus is employing a figure of speech known as metonym.

METONYMY

Metonymy is a type of figurative language in which an object or concept is referred to not by its own name, but instead by the name of something closely associated with it. .. Metonymy in literature often substitutes a concrete image for an abstract concept. "Heart" can be used to mean "love," or "grave" to mean "death."

....or ... SOUL to mean "life" .

Note how this is supported by numerous bible writers (keep in mind they are all translating the same word NEPHESH)


MATTHEW 16:26

Christian Standard Bible
For what will it benefit someone if he gains the whole world yet loses his life? Or what will anyone give in exchange for his life?

Good News Translation
Will you gain anything if you win the whole world but lose your life? Of course not! There is nothing you can give to regain your life.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
What will it benefit a man if he gains the whole world yet loses his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?

International Standard Version
because what profit will a person have if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what can a person give in exchange for his life?

NET Bible
For what does it benefit a person if he gains the whole world but forfeits his life? Or what can a person give in exchange for his life?

New Heart English Bible
For what will it profit a person, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his life? Or what will a person give in exchange for his life?

GOD'S WORD® Translation
What good will it do for people to win the whole world and lose their lives? Or what will a person give in exchange for life?

American Standard Version
For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?

English Revised Version
For what shall a man be profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? or what shall a man give in exchange for his life?

Weymouth New Testament
Why, what benefit will it be to a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give to buy back his life?

World English Bible
For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?

Young's Literal Translation
for what is a man profited if he may gain the whole world, but of his life suffer loss? or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?

So all these bible translations reflect the notion Jesus is using a figure of speech to speak about ones life. NOTE : We do something similar in English with the idiomatic expression "to lose ones life"

"Eight passengers tragically ls lost their lives at sea in a boating accident Tuesday"

While this description does indeed make a distinction between " the passengers" and "their lives", it does not mean the passengers can survive the loss of "their lives" ; nor that since Tuesday 8 lives have been swimming lost in the sea, it is simply an idiomatic expression that means ... they died.

CONCLUSION Matthew 16: 26 doesn't depict Jesus teaching peoples souls detach from their bodies and survive their deaths, he simply uses an expression that means to die.

FURTHER READING
https://www.britannica.com/art/figure-of-speech