The Golden Rule's problems

[Willum]

The Golden Rule, has its first known origins with the Goddess Ma'at and a story about unlawful claiming of property.
It was either taken from there, or rediscovered by Thales of Greece in about 500 BCE.

It is recapped in the Bible in Matthew 7:12,

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: Do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets

Or in the OT, Leviticus 19:18

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

It sounds great on the surface, but is it the ultimate slippery slope for morality?

The key to recognize the problem is that we all think we are good.
The serial killers of the worlds, the rapist, the you name its of villainy are aware of and can probably justify their actions with the Golden Rule.

Premise of the topic: The Golden Rule sets every single individual as a standard for morality, and appeals to vanity to delude us into its being correct.
It seems like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

Bad people will do bad things, because their personal version of the rule, allows it. They would say to themselves, "If I were this given person [whom I am doing bad things to], I would expect this kind of treatment from me."

So the topic of debate is obvious, is the Golden Rule the metric for behavior that it is employed as?

[1213]

According to the words put in Jesus' mouth, it was:

It is interesting that you have to make such baseless interpretation. I think there is no good reason to claim Jesus meant something else than what he said. But I understand that atheism may collapse without false accusations.

[1213]

It IS talking about taxes!

Sorry, I rather listen to Jesus than you. Jesus doesnt say pay taxes, that is your interpretation and I think it is really not very wise and not good.

So, if we go by Jesus's logic then money we have that has pictures of presidents on it... or queens, belongs to those people, so we should pay back to them what is there's.

The logic of Jesus is, if a coin belongs to somebody, let him have it. And I think it could be continued with, dont even take any coins that belong to someone else. It would be better not to use money that is someone elses. Jews should not have even taken them at the first place. The coin loses meaning and value, if it is ignored.

[1213]

Bermuda
Monaco
The Bahamas
United Arab Emirates...

Income tax is just one of the taxes. Governments are clever to invent something else instead of that, or in addition to that. But thank you for your effort. I like that those dont have income tax, but for example Monaco has Value Added Tax.

Are you against people owning other people as property? If so, you are against some of the rules in the Bible .

Bible gives freedom to buy servants from other nations. If people would obey the other rules in the Bible, those should have freedom after 6 years. I think it can be better for those people who are sold, therefore I think it is not bad. But, I think it would be really important to follow also then the rule to free the servants. It is really bad, if people cherry pick some lines from the Old Testament to justify their bad ideas and ignore the rest that would protect other people.

[Tcg]

Bible gives freedom to buy servants from other nations. If people would obey the other rules in the Bible, those should have freedom after 6 years.

As I've already documented in post 41, this is not accurate according to the Bible itself:

• • 44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."
    
    Leviticus 25:44-45

In post 56, per your request, I provided the perspective of a Jewish scholar on these verses:

• As I've already documented in post 41, this is not true of non-Hebrew slaves. They could be kept as permanent property.

  It would be nice to hear opinion from a Jewish teacher.
  

  In reference to Leviticus 25, Dr. Rabbi Zev Farber comments:

  • This text emphasizes in a variety of different ways that an Israelite (the word Hebrew is not used) cannot be a slave:
    1.You may not treat your kinsman like a slave (v. 39).
    2.Your kinsman must be treated like a hired laborer (v. 40).
    3.Your kinsman, and his family, returns to his ancestral land on the Jubilee year (v. 41).
    4.God freed the Israelites from Egyptian bondage, so they cannot be slaves (v. 42).
    5.Do not mistreat them, if you fear God (v. 43).
    6.You may have permanent male and female slaves, but they must be non-Israelites (v. 44-46).[12]
    
    https://thetorah.com/hebrew-slave-exodu ... uteronomy/
    
    <bolding mine>

As the Bible clearly states and Dr. Rabbi Zev Farber verifies, non-Israelites could be kept as permanent slaves.

In case this isn't clear enough, Leviticus 25:46 seals the deal:

• 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

I've bolded the key phrase that clearly contradicts your claim. Note also the contrast in the last phrase as to how Israelites were to be treated.


Tcg

[Tcg]

It IS talking about taxes!

Sorry, I rather listen to Jesus than you. Jesus doesnt say pay taxes, that is your interpretation and I think it is really not very wise and not good.

This has already been addressed as well in post 64:

• • Matthew 22:17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?
    
    18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax. They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, Whose image is this? And whose inscription?
    
    21 Caesars, they replied.
    
    Then he said to them, So give back to Caesar what is Caesars, and to God what is Gods.
    
    <bolding mine>

[/quote]

And in post 65:

• 
  It IS talking about taxes!
  
  Mark 12:13-17
  13 Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14 They came to him and said, Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You arent swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldnt we?
  
  But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. Why are you trying to trap me? he asked. Bring me a denarius and let me look at it. 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, Whose image is this? And whose inscription?
  Caesars, they replied.
  17 Then Jesus said to them, Give back to Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods.

Jesus clearly supported the payment of taxes. Denying this fact doesn't change it.


Tcg

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 74 by Tcg]

Exactly. I don't see how anyone can read that and not see it was Jesus endorsing the paying of taxes. The pharasees would have surely got that mesage.

Jesus wouldn't have been hanging around with a tax collector if he didn't believe that people should pay taxes. He wouldn't have chosen one as his desciple.

The coins didn't belong to Caesar. It was a form of currency to take away the need for trading. If the money was Caesar's he would'nt just be demanding a percentage of it.

As for 1213's defence that the person who was fatally beaten, who died over two days later, died of some other cause than the beating. I'm just not even going to dignify that with a response. I can see that one clearly has to compromise their moral integrity to defend such scriptures.

[benchwarmer]

Bermuda
Monaco
The Bahamas
United Arab Emirates...

Income tax is just one of the taxes. Governments are clever to invent something else instead of that, or in addition to that. But thank you for your effort. I like that those dont have income tax, but for example Monaco has Value Added Tax.

It was no effort. 5 seconds on Google. Don't move to Monaco then since you are not a slave and not forced to do anyone's bidding but your own.

Are you against people owning other people as property? If so, you are against some of the rules in the Bible .

Bible gives freedom to buy servants from other nations.

So you are for it then since you follow the Bible. A simple yes would have sufficed, but I suppose that would have been too direct.

Where do you live? If not in Canada then I am free to buy you and then beat you as long as you don't die within 2 days. Sounds like a good deal to me, but not so much for you. Thankfully I don't follow the Bible and won't be attempting to buy you away from your home and family unlike the immoral people who wrote down the rules in the Bible. What a great set of rules you follow.

If people would obey the other rules in the Bible, those should have freedom after 6 years.

As has already been shown you are either ignoring or unaware of the OTHER rules in the Bible that let you make slaves permanent under certain conditions. You should really read the entire Bible, not just the convenient parts.

I think it can be better for those people who are sold, therefore I think it is not bad.

You think it's better for people to be sold?! You would have had a better life if your parents sold you into slavery? Where do you get this stuff? Oh ya, from the Bible....

But, I think it would be really important to follow also then the rule to free the servants. It is really bad, if people cherry pick some lines from the Old Testament to justify their bad ideas and ignore the rest that would protect other people.

Pot, kettle, black. YOU are the one cherry picking what you find acceptable and ignoring the parts that destroy your argument up to this point.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life

Which part of the above quote from the Bible don't you get?

[1213]

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Yes, it was allowed that person can be a slave longer time, if he wants.

If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold to you, and serve you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. When you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty: you shall furnish him liberally out of your flock, and out of your threshing floor, and out of your winepress; as Yahweh your God has blessed you, you shall give to him. You shall remember that you were a bondservant in the land of Egypt, and Yahweh your God redeemed you: therefore I command you this thing today. It shall be, if he tell you, I will not go out from you; because he loves you and your house, because he is well with you; then you shall take an awl, and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your maid-servant you shall do likewise. It shall not seem hard to you, when you let him go free from you; for to the double of the hire of a hireling has he served you six years: and Yahweh your God will bless you in all that you do.
Deu. 15:12-18

[1213]

...So you are for it then since you follow the Bible

Because I dont want to be a slave, I dont want to keep anyone my slave.

Where do you live? If not in Canada then I am free to buy you

Are you saying Canadiens sell their people? It can be difficult to buy, if no one is selling, which is not allowed in the Bible.

You think it's better for people to be sold?! You would have had a better life if your parents sold you into slavery?

If my parents would be that evil that they would sell me, I would be clad to go to Jewish buyer.

[Tcg]

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Yes, it was allowed that person can be a slave longer time, if he wants.

That isn't what the passage states. Note the phrase, "slaves for life" and even more importantly, "inherited property."

If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold to you, and serve you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.

<Bolding Mine>

This applies only to Israelites as my bolding highlights. You have failed once again to deal with the facts presented in Leviticus 25.


Tcg