God's violent ways

[OnceConvinced]

The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very violent ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

[JehovahsWitness]

Having an innocent man killed for the attrocities of someone else is immoral.

Where did God ever do this?

Wasn't he killed for the attrocities of others? Didn't he die on the cross for your attrocities? Wasn't this God's will?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Galatians 1:4
Christ obeyed God our Father and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins to rescue us from this evil world.

John 1:29 ESV
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 9:12
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

• Can you name the person or group that performed said "atrocities"? And what those atrocities were?
• When you say "killed for...." do you mean that is the reason Jesus was killed?
• Where in those scriptures does it say that God had Jesus killed ie that God authorized, comissson or manipulated events in order for him to be killed?
• And finally are you implying that whatever happened to Jesus was against his Will?

[JehovahsWitness]

Having an innocent man killed for the attrocities of someone else is immoral.

Where did God ever do this?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Galatians 1:4
Christ obeyed God our Father and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins to rescue us from this evil world.

John 1:29 ESV
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 9:12
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Having an innocent man killed for the attrocities of someone else ...

Emphasis MINE

• Where in those scriptures does it say that God had Jesus killed* ie that God authorized, comissson or manipulated events in order for him to be killed?
  
  * If you were attempting to communicate a different meaning to the expression "had Jesus killed" maybe you would be so kind as to explain what it is. It is generally understood that the bible narrative indictaes that YHWH The Father authorized, comissson or manipulated events in order for him to be BORN but can you present evidence that he did the same so Jesus would be killed?!

[JehovahsWitness]

WHY DID JESUS DIE?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Galatians 1:4
Christ obeyed God our Father and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins to rescue us from this evil world.

John 1:29 ESV
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 9:12
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Having an innocent man killed for the attrocities of someone else ...

Emphasis MINE

Wasn't he killed for the attrocities of others?

• Can you name the person or group that performed said "atrocities"? And what those atrocities were?
• When you say "killed for...." do you mean that is the reason or purpose behind Jesus death, ie Jesus was killed instead of killing people who perform wicked acts (see defintion below)? Or Jesus was killed as retribution for wicked acts? Clarification Appreciated.
• And finally are you implying that whatever happened to Jesus was against his (Jesus') will?

ASTROCITY

An extremely wicked or cruel act, typically one involving physical violence or injury.

[1213]

Yeah, maybe, but I don't include babies and animals in that. Do you?

When I include people who are going to kill, I do not mean people who are going to kill in 20 years from now. I mean if it's going to happen right then and there.

Ok. I have understood from the Bible that Gods judgment is based on is one righteous or not. And even if people wouldnt like, I think that is just the truth. I personally think it is good principle, but I also think that because God has given life, He has also right to decide how long life He gives.

.Should sheep be made to suffer because of evil humans?

I think that is a good question for those who eat sheep.

You don't see that as a bad outcome?

People wanted to know evil and God allowed it, I dont think that is bad. Also, many people seem to have rejected God. If people then get all that comes by godless way, I think it is what the people want.

[Zzyzx]

.

I think that is a good question for those who eat sheep.

Years ago I was being 'enlightened' by a vegetarian about cruelty of eating animals. I pointed to his shoes and said only, "Leather?" They were.

Enlightenment in real time.

Hypocrisy seems quite popular.

[Zzyzx]

.
From one short post:

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
I have understood
I think
I personally think
I also think
I think that
I dont think that
I think it

It would seem appropriate to start a blog somewhere that did not involve pretending to debate.

What you think may be impressive to you but is not a matter of debate. What can be substantiated with verifiable evidence is meaningful.

[OnceConvinced]

• Can you name the person or group that performed said "atrocities"? And what those atrocities were?

When I say atrocities, I am talking about sin. So Jesus was put to death as the lamb of god (the ultimate sacrifice) for people's sins. That's everyone including you and I. Jesus died for your atrocities, JW. YOU are included in that group.

[*] When you say "killed for...." do you mean that is the reason Jesus was killed?

He was the sacrifice for our sins, right? The lamb of God.

[*] Where in those scriptures does it say that God had Jesus killed ie that God authorized, comissson or manipulated events in order for him to be killed?

Do we need to play word games here?

A couple of those scriptures I quoted there say that Jesus was following God's instructions. Doing his will. This wasn't a matter of Jesus stepping up and saying "Hey, God can we find a way to redeem everyone? Hey, I know what if I die for them?". No, this was a case of "Hey God, you need a blood sacrifice. I'll step up and be that sacrifice".

[*] And finally are you implying that whatever happened to Jesus was against his Will?
[/list]

No, I'm not implying it was agianst his will. I can accept that Jesus volunteered to do this. But he wouldn't have needed to do this if it wasn't for God's requirements that innocent blood must be spilt before he will forgive. He was following God's desires. Obeying God's will.

God set up a system where the brutal slaying of innocent beings was required before he would forgive, even though he had the power to forgive without the need for bloodshed.

God chose a violent system to put in place. Perhaps this was a matter of Jesus not liking the bloodthirsty system already in place so said "Hey, God, maybe there's a way to stop all this carnage. How about I be the ultimate sacrifice so that you won't have to demand bloody slaughter of animals anymore?"

[OnceConvinced]

Having an innocent man killed for the attrocities of someone else is immoral.

Where did God ever do this?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Galatians 1:4
Christ obeyed God our Father and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins to rescue us from this evil world.

John 1:29 ESV
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 9:12
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

Having an innocent man killed for the attrocities of someone else ...

Emphasis MINE

• Where in those scriptures does it say that God had Jesus killed* ie that God authorized, comissson or manipulated events in order for him to be killed?
  
  * If you were attempting to communicate a different meaning to the expression "had Jesus killed" maybe you would be so kind as to explain what it is. It is generally understood that the bible narrative indictaes that YHWH The Father authorized, comissson or manipulated events in order for him to be BORN but can you present evidence that he did the same so Jesus would be killed?!

The first two verses I quoted show us quite clearly it was God's intention that Jesus be slain. He may not have been the one to actually do it, but the sacrifice was his will. His requirement, just as all animal slayings for sacrifices was his requirement.

I'm not interested in word games. The verses show us quite cleary that God had a requirement and the death of an innocent being was necessary before he would forgive sins. That was God's plan and just because he didn't directly kill Jesus himself does not mean it wasn't part of his plan. His intention.

Of course it was commissioned by God, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have gone through with it and the bible would not be telling us he was sacrificed for our sins. The bible would not be telling us that the blood of Jesus washes away our sins.

Here's some more scriptures for you:

John 14:31
but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father.

John 6:38
Jesus declared, For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 4:34:
Jesus said to them, My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.'

Philippians 2:8
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


And this one here shows us he didn't really want to do this. He knew he HAD TO. God required it!

Matthew 26:39
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

You ask where did God manipulate events? Who's to say he didn't? But maybe he didn't need to? Maybe he just had to instruct Jesus to anger as many of the powerful people as he could. Do a bit of blaspheming. That will work.

And God is known from time to time to harden people's hearts.Who's to say he didn't harden say Pilate's heart, the one man who could have pardoned Jesus.

[OnceConvinced]

.Should sheep be made to suffer because of evil humans?

I think that is a good question for those who eat sheep.

This is not about humans eating sheep. This is about a god slaughtering all sheep along with the evil humans. Do you think that's just or moral?

As for sheep eaters, perhaps it's immoral to eat any living creature? But that's another issue entirely.

You don't see that as a bad outcome?

People wanted to know evil and God allowed it,

Going by the story of the Fall of Man I don't see Adam and Eve as being people who wanted to know evil. They were manipulated by Satan. They had their arms twisted to believe that it was ok to eat the fruit. Then they were repentent afterwards.

They may have wanted knowledge, but that's not the same as wanting to know or to commit evil.

I certainly don't want to know evil or commit evil, but I'm under the same curses aren't I? I've been thrown right into the middle of it instead of enjoying life in the Garden of Edenl. Same for you. I certainly don't consider what we have here a good outcome when you consider the tranquilty of the Garden of Eden.

[Tcg]

Going by the story of the Fall of Man I don't see Adam and Eve as being people who wanted to know evil.

Indeed. Going by the story, Adam and Eve would have had no concept of evil. It is inconceivable they would have wanted to know something they had concept of.

It would be like a bluefin tuna wanting to know what prime rib tastes like.

Tcg