Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

[achilles12604]

This quesiton has been posed in various ways on this forum since I arrived. Welshboy is the most recent to ask so I am making it a thread. I hope it isn't one already.

Here is my own ideas about why God choses not to directly appear and cause everyone to believe in him.

If God does exist then he is a force of unimaginable power and magisty.

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

[Beta]

God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

I would say that in general terms you are right - we have free will to choose God or not. But I don't think it's quite that simple for most of us start out with a false concept of God. We either believe we are already good and he is pleased with us or we don't need him because WE can handle life. Both these concepts and any other we may harbour are wrong and we have to be turned and motivated to ACTUALLY NEED him. Since our salvation depends on the right choice God Himself has to have a say in it - by ourself and on our own we don't know GOD'S WAY, only as it seems right to us and that is not approved by God. Prov.3 v 5, Heb.12 v 6.
The goodness and patience of God leads us to repentance 2Pt.3 v 9, Rom.2 v 4, and from there on to the next step Acts 2 v 38.
Following Christ is a series of steps designed by God for our spiritual safety and security 1Pt.2 v 21, 1Jh.2 v 6. Every man is born in sin and therefore has wrong concepts of which he has to repent before he can truly follow Christ Rom.8 v 7 .
But your question leads away from the topic. The reason God won't just appear and convert everybody at once has to do with balance and equilibrium of his creation. You can't turn a big ship in an instant without breaking it up completely but need to allow time to turn it. And the world being much bigger than a ship and it's occupants already in a very fragile state thanks to satan need gentle handling which takes time.

[bernee51]

This quesiton has been posed in various ways on this forum since I arrived. Welshboy is the most recent to ask so I am making it a thread. I hope it isn't one already.

Here is my own ideas about why God choses not to directly appear and cause everyone to believe in him.

Colured by you beliefs?

If God does exist then he is a force of unimaginable power and magisty.

What if there is a god with more power and majexty than yours. Have you read Heinlien's "Job: A comedy of Injustice."

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them.

A hasty generalization.

This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

Lack of evidence DOES help.Is it just a coincidence that the invisible and non-existent look so similar.?

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

I would do it out of wonder. This is a just god offering al sorts of rewards for the behaviour I am now exhibiting. Why would fear enter into it?

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God.

I fail to understand that a god of such 'unimaginable power and majesty' would want any other creatur to want him.

It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either.

Another hast generalization. Thr are very many who claim they wopuld be lost without god. They NEED him alright.

But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Such as?

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

You logic may be perfect. It is your premises that suck.

[achilles12604]

This quesiton has been posed in various ways on this forum since I arrived. Welshboy is the most recent to ask so I am making it a thread. I hope it isn't one already.

Here is my own ideas about why God choses not to directly appear and cause everyone to believe in him.

Colured by you beliefs?

Of course. Arn't we all?

If God does exist then he is a force of unimaginable power and magisty.

What if there is a god with more power and majexty than yours. Have you read Heinlien's "Job: A comedy of Injustice."

Then I guess I'll have to convert.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

I would do it out of wonder. This is a just god offering al sorts of rewards for the behaviour I am now exhibiting. Why would fear enter into it?

If I took a poll of the reasons why an atheist would convert if faced with a very real God who controlled their eternal disposition, how many do you think would honestly chose to convert for the wonder they saw? How many would go along with it to avoid destruction? What do you think?

It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either.

Another hast generalization. Thr are very many who claim they wopuld be lost without god. They NEED him alright.

True. However you misread my statement. I meant that people want other people to love them. Same with God. I also said that people do not need other people to love them. Neither does God. You got what I wrote mixed up.

But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Such as?

Ask anyone in love. What are the feelings that you get by and because of the other person? Would you be able to have these same feelings if you were totally devoid of this kind of relationship?

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

You logic may be perfect. It is your premises that suck.

This is about as great of a compliment as I have recieved while on this forum. Thank you. Seriously.

[ManBearPig]

Achilles, with due respect, none of your premises make any sense to me:

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them.

Can you clarify that? I thought the exact opposite was true. For example, how did life on earth start? (forgive me for generalizing a little...)

Athiest = "I don't know"
Christian = "God must have done it" (Christians won't accept "I don't know")

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

Why? I can't see how Him appearing has anything to do with anything. Why do you love God anyway? Would that change if He appeared tomorrow and made Himself obvious to everyone?

I mean, I love my mom, and she makes it clear to me that she exists. I'll daresay that the obviousness of her existence has not gotten in the way of our relationship. Why does God insist we look for Him? He can't just be around? Is that how you'd raise your kids?

[achilles12604]

Achilles, with due respect, none of your premises make any sense to me:

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them.

Can you clarify that? I thought the exact opposite was true. For example, how did life on earth start? (forgive me for generalizing a little...)

Athiest = "I don't know"
Christian = "God must have done it" (Christians won't accept "I don't know")

Good point. Criticism taken. I meant that they believe that they can be sure of things they can't, such as a supernatural realm. They assume that given their own experiences and what they can observe around them, that they are correct in this assumption. however, many do not stop and think about the fact that if the supernatural does in fact exist, then it really would not be able to be tested by their observations.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

Why? I can't see how Him appearing has anything to do with anything. Why do you love God anyway? Would that change if He appeared tomorrow and made Himself obvious to everyone?

Did you read my explaination for this? I wrote out the WHY you are asking here in my prior post.

I'll repost it.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

As for why I love God, well it is hard to explain unless I can master telepathic communication. It is a gift of the Holy spirit. It is a feeling that is with me all the time. He cares for me. He calms me. he teaches me. He protects me.

I mean, I love my mom, and she makes it clear to me that she exists. I'll daresay that the obviousness of her existence has not gotten in the way of our relationship. Why does God insist we look for Him? He can't just be around? Is that how you'd raise your kids?

Nope. it is not how I would raise my own kids. This is one of the areas where your quesitioning is right on and my answers would all fall short. I have my opinons about WHY God would do this, but they would simply be arrogant statements since I really have no idea.

Am I convinced what I think is correct? Sure until I find reason to reject it. But can I prove it or even have it make sense to others around me who don't believe? I'm afraid not.

[NGR]

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

Humans are an inquisitive lot and abhor the unknown. We like to tinker with things and this tinkering and the attendant knowledge gained is at the heart of our civilisations expansion and progress. When the unknowns are beyond our current ability to decipher we speculate. When this speculation has psychological benefits for us the concepts often end up woven into our society. Such is the situation with the creation of Gods.

Non believers with a dose of scepticism and perhaps more well developed critical thinking skills consider the notion of Gods and their attendant baggage to be unsupported by any objective evidence. In substitute for the believers knowledge of this unevidenced realm the nonbeliever simply and honestly claims they don't know. God did it has been proposed countless times throughout history, as a substitute for the more honest answer of I don't know. This God did it mentality has simply acted as a placeholder until someone with enterprise, curiosity, and a sufficient knowledge base comes up with a more useful explanation, one that actually works and adds to the progress of our civilisation.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

You mean a reasonable person would be justified in claiming Gods non existence based on the current evidence?

As ManBearPig(a trinity?) has already pointed out your comment doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would your attitude to God differ whether you believed, wished, thought he existed compared to you knew he existed?

In addition this same God supposedly appeared a couple of thousand years ago and wandered around amongst his chosen group of bronze aged goat herders undertaking miracles and doing all he could to prove his existence and its ramifications. Prior to that he regularly attended this chosen group smiting hither and thither their enemies(well all those without iron chariots) and giving them a hard time when he considered that they weren't obedient enough. He doesn't seem to have had a problem with personal appearances then, why not now?

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Want and need are synonymous as far as I can see. One has to ponder why an omi everything entity would want or need anything. This seems to be simply a human projection.

[ManBearPig]

I'm a trinity indeed!

Well, regarding the supernatural, I don't believe in it. But that's not the same as saying I'm sure it doesn't exist. I can't really know, and I think if you pinned most atheists down, they'd say the same (except Bernee of course ).

And, here's what I meant by "why". Achilles, you said...

(A) Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. (B) Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

I was asking, why does (A) result in (B)? I think it's a non-sequitur.

And don't forget NGR's good point about how your premise (A) implies that a reasonable person could deny God's existence until he appears. You're contradicting the normal Christian claim that God's existence is already obvious...

[achilles12604]

I'm a trinity indeed!

Well, regarding the supernatural, I don't believe in it. But that's not the same as saying I'm sure it doesn't exist. I can't really know, and I think if you pinned most atheists down, they'd say the same (except Bernee of course ).

And, here's what I meant by "why". Achilles, you said...

(A) Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. (B) Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

I was asking, why does (A) result in (B)? I think it's a non-sequitur.

And don't forget NGR's good point about how your premise (A) implies that a reasonable person could deny God's existence until he appears. You're contradicting the normal Christian claim that God's existence is already obvious...

Ok lets follow this logic through for a minute.

Step A) Atheist X doesn't believe God exists.

Step B) He makes the decision that God doesn't exist because he believes Dawkins that Science can and eventually will account for everything so God isn't needed.

Step C) Because of this he feels no need to repent of any sins. He may even decide as Bernee has that there is not sin at all.


Now God suddenly appears and repeates the commands of the bible and points out that he in fact did inspire the bible because he knows that if all mankind would submit to him, there would be utopia.

Step D) This atheist is suddenly confronted with a being of unimaginable power and awe.

Step E) This atheist now realizes that if he does not confrom to the will of this supreme being he will face certain destruction with those who conciously rebel against him.

Step F) Atheist X is a reasonable person and has enough intelligence to follow instincts of self-preservation. He now begins to conform to the laws given directly by God. He "falls in line" faster than ever thought possible.


Questions:

1) Did atheist X change their behavior and values?
2) Would atheist X have changed their values and behaviors if God hadn't appeared?


If your answer is yes and no, then God has just violated their free will to reject him.



Let's look at the other side of this.

Step A) A person reads the teachings of Jesus and sees the wisdom in them.

Step B) This person is open to the possibility of things outside of what is currently understood.

Step C) This person's openness to new ideas, combined with their opinion of Jesus teachings and some nudgging by the holy spirit, decides to follow these teachings and apply them to their life.

Step D) This person is now a follower of Jesus and is guided and counciled by the holy spirit.

If God appeared, they would not have to change their beliefs or behaviors or moral values becuse they already conform to God's.


Now is my line of thought a little clearer?

[abdulwahid_1426]

There are some fundamental issues that Christians, who state to be believers in an all powerful God have not addressed. In addressing them the refutation of the Achilles12604 will hopefully become apparent inshaAllaah.

Beta Said:

"The reason God won't just appear and convert everybody at once has to do with balance and equilibrium of his creation. You can't turn a big ship in an instant without breaking it up completely but need to allow time to turn it. And the world being much bigger than a ship and it's occupants already in a very fragile state thanks to satan need gentle handling which takes time."

Because Beta quoted the Bible it has been assumed that Beta is a Christian.

Either way I say this to Beta, the Christians, and anyone reading this thread. The Creator of the heavens and earth, its inhabitants - those that are known to us and those that are not is all powerful.

He alone is the disposer of affairs, and the facilitator of all actions. He would not need to worry about upsetting the equilibrium of His creation. The Lord says in His noble Qur'an:

"Allaah bears witness that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshiped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He is always) maintaining His creation in Justice. Lâ ilâh illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshiped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Aali Imran 3:18)"

God tells us several things here. One is that the angels and the people who have knowledge bear witness that there is none who deserves worship but He. The verse begins with God Himself bearing witness to this fact. This is a reminder for us and not for Him.

Furthermore He tells us that He maintains His creation in Justice and that He is All Mighty and All Wise. So Beta's analogy should not be accepted by anyone who believes in an all powerful Lord. Nor should it be uttered by anyone who believes in an all powerful Lord.

Christians state they believe that God is all powerful. So to them I say please stay away from this analogy-this idle and inaccurate speech. Proceed with the realization that God is all powerful and fear Him with a due estimation.

To proceed:

Achilles12604 said:

"Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person."

The Christians should contest this as they claim to claim that God is the Creator of everything. Achilles12604, Christians, and others reading there is textual and intellectual proof of the Creator.

From the textual proofs:

"And indeed, We created man from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. (Al-Hijr 15:26)"

"And among His Signs is this, that He created you (Adam) from dust, and then [Hawwa' (Eve) from Adam's rib, and then his offspring from the semen, and], - behold you are human beings scattered! (Ar-Rum 30:20)"

"And from His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun, nor the moon, but prostrate to Allaah who created them, if you truly worship Him." [Soorah Fussilat (41):37]

"Your Lord is Allaah who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then ascended upon the Throne. He causes the night to cover the day which follows with haste; and the sun, the moon and the stars are subservient and subject to His command. Certainly creation and commandment are His alone. Exalted is Allaah the Lord of all creation." [Soorah al-A'raaf (7):54]

From the intellectual proofs there is an indication to them from the speech of the Creator:

"Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators? (At-Tur 52:35)"

Man did not create himself, since before coming into this life, he did not exist; and that which is nothing cannot create anything at all. Nor was it the case that his father or mother or anyone from the creation created him. Nor did he randomly appear without a creator to bring him into existence, since for everything which comes into existence or occurs there must be one who brings it into existence or causes it to occur. The presence of all that exists in the creation and the amazing order found in it and its harmonious structure makes it impossible that it came about randomly. This is because that which would come into existence randomly and by chance is not in principle and origin something well ordered. This produces the certain conclusion that God alone is the creator, and there is no creator, nor anyone who orders and commands except Him.

So the position of Achilles12604 is fundamentally flawed because God has done something which makes his existence undeniable to a person using reason and sound intellect.

Please reflect upon this. It is an invitation to search.