Holy Horrors

[Zzyzx]

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When Christians talk about the church’s good works

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/02/ho ... nEe4c_g0dA

Question for debate: What 'good works' would equal the bad works done by the church, its officials, and its organized adherents?

[Willum]

I am not sure what sins can be forgiven when you have invoked an non-demonstrable creature as your excuse (scapegoat) for committing them.

God evidently told Moses to kill Amorites.
God evidently told Cortez to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Polk to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Hitler to kill Jews, Poles, and more.
God evidently told the British Army, New South Wales Mounted Police to kill Native Australians.
...and the list goes on.

None of them can demonstrate God gave the order.
That means the rational was only a horrible one.

[Elijah John]

.
When Christians talk about the church’s good works

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2017/02/ho ... nEe4c_g0dA

Question for debate: What 'good works' would equal the bad works done by the church, its officials, and its organized adherents?

Excellent points. The Church (and the Bible itself) is in need of redemption. Like human beings are..

But in more modern times the Church (at it's best) has been a force for good. Building and running hospitals, feeding the poor, relieving suffering, etc.

[ttruscott]

Question for debate: What 'good works' would equal the bad works done by the church, its officials, and its organized adherents?

Since good works has no salvative value and even one bad work has an ultimate disvalue, I do not find that any good work obviates the pernicious effect of any bad work by any person, church person or not. That is what Christ died for...

As for trying the acts of Church organizations rather than guilty people, it smacks of the way gov'ts have othered whole cultures, political groups, sexual groups or language groups for special extinctive administration.

[Elijah John]

I am not sure what sins can be forgiven when you have invoked an non-demonstrable creature as your excuse (scapegoat) for committing them.

God evidently told Moses to kill Amorites.
God evidently told Cortez to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Polk to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Hitler to kill Jews, Poles, and more.
God evidently told the British Army, New South Wales Mounted Police to kill Native Australians.
...and the list goes on.

None of them can demonstrate God gave the order.
That means the rational was only a horrible one.

Did Hitler claim Divine mandate to murder Jews, Poles and more? I think he just did it from his own twisted ambition, nothing more.

[ttruscott]

God evidently told Moses to kill Amorites.
God evidently told Cortez to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Polk to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Hitler to kill Jews, Poles, and more.
God evidently told the British Army, New South Wales Mounted Police to kill Native Australians.

While the bible supports Moses passing along the order to judge the Amorites which I accept as evidence, I would need to see the evidence you reference that Cortez, Polk, Hitler, or the British Army received orders from GOD to kill anyone.

[Tcg]

I am not sure what sins can be forgiven when you have invoked an non-demonstrable creature as your excuse (scapegoat) for committing them.

God evidently told Moses to kill Amorites.
God evidently told Cortez to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Polk to kill Native Americans.
God evidently told Hitler to kill Jews, Poles, and more.
God evidently told the British Army, New South Wales Mounted Police to kill Native Australians.
...and the list goes on.

None of them can demonstrate God gave the order.
That means the rational was only a horrible one.

Did Hitler claim Divine mandate to murder Jews, Poles and more? I think he just did it from his own twisted ambition, nothing more.

We find this quote in Mein Kamph:

• Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. (p. 65)

Tcg

[Willum]

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Yes he did.
The days of Christians driving posterity are gone...
You can see in wikiquote where he ‘felt God was driving him on.’ Sounds like the “proof� many theists on this very forum reference.

Scary, no?
I know many Christian Apologists debate his Catholicism... but we have his words, invocations and alliance with the Catholic Church of Rome.

Vs. “Religion is regarded by the lay as true, by the wise as false, and by politicians as useful.�

I personally don’t think anyone who did not believe would make their ‘stormtroopers’ oath, one to God, unless they believed.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 6 by ttruscott]

How about them simply using the same motives as Moses did?
They use the OT as their guide for what is sufficient reason for genocide, checked some boxes, and said, “my nemesis is worse�?

American Indians had a culture where kidnapping was not a crime. To whites, that is near ultimate evil, no?
Everyone gets demonized, regardless, no?

For evidence, I can easily submit, “Manifest Destiny,� as TCG demo’d, a quote. The rest are a bit of a history lesson, but not too long.

[bjs]

Just to be sure that I understand your point: Are we blaming the church (and Christianity in general) for every negative thing that Christians have done, and crediting the church (and Christianity in general) for every positive thing that Christians have done?