The return of Christ?

[Tart]

It's a good question... People have been asking for years "why hasnt Jesus returned yet?".."it was suppose to happen 2000 years ago"....

But technically it says it is suppose to happen in the end times in Revelations...

However... I was thinking about the book of Act's, when it said Jesus would return in the same manner he was taken up to heaven... I just started pondering it, if it would ever happen before I die...

But the Book of Revelations end with

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.�
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

the end times actually play out, with Jesus never returning... Or does He?

[Avoice]

[Replying to post 6 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Have some more Einstein:

(Einstein speaking with the Rebbe)

EINSTEIN:
" I think we are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being towards God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws.

REBBE:
“So the true challenge of science today is not to refute G-d, but to discover how [science] reflects and illuminates parts of G-d’s mind that have yet to be uncovered.�

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Tired of the Nonsense]



HAS THE BIBLE BEEN PROVEN WRONG SINCE IT SPEAKS OF CERTAIN PROPHECIES BEING FULFILLED "SOON" AND "QUICKLY" YET THOUSANDS OF YEARS AFTER BEING WRITTEN THEY REMAIN UNFULFILLED?

It depends on who wrote the passages in question. Was it God? Or humans. Human beings (even inspired ones) usually write with human perspective and human perception on things like time.

Even if God directly wrote the passages in question, wouldn't a caring and understanding God accommodate Himself and His message to human understanding? Otherwise, "his ways are far above our ways" (to paraphrase) and He and His message are ultimately incomprehensible and useless to us humans.

Also, there are many other passages including from Jesus himself which indicate expectation for Christ's immanent return. (Matthew 16,28) And consider the opening passage from the book of Hebrews, "in these last days he spoke to us through a Son ".

I'm sure other examples will be forthcoming on this thread. Stay tuned.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 8 by Avoice]

Question, do the Hebrew Scriptures ever predict the Messiah will arrive "soon" the way the NT does regarding the second coming of Christ?

[1213]

It's a good question... People have been asking for years "why hasnt Jesus returned yet?".."it was suppose to happen 2000 years ago"...

Jesus returned 3 days after he had died, according to the Bible. But probably that is not what you meant. “Soon� is quite relative word. That is why I like more for example this:

This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt. 24:14

That is more exact information. Because end has not yet come to, we can assume the gospel Jesus is speaking, has not yet been preached in the whole world. This leads also to question, do “Christian� really preach the same gospel Jesus had. And unfortunately, it seems often that they are preaching own doctrines rather than what Jesus said.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by Tired of the Nonsense]



HAS THE BIBLE BEEN PROVEN WRONG SINCE IT SPEAKS OF CERTAIN PROPHECIES BEING FULFILLED "SOON" AND "QUICKLY" YET THOUSANDS OF YEARS AFTER BEING WRITTEN THEY REMAIN UNFULFILLED?

It depends on who wrote the passages in question.

Not really, thags like saying that the statement "water freezes at zero degrees" is true depending on who says it. Truth is not subject to who says or writes that truth down.

An infinite God would logically not perceive the passing of time as that which is finite. Even a human, as he grows older perceive time differently as a single unit of time diminishes in proportion to his total lifespan (although given diminishing returns it increases in proprtion to his remaining time before death. Even so, "next year" seems an "eternity" to a three year old, since a year is a third of his life, while the same period of time is perceived as relatively short time away to a man in his sixties. The bottom line is, both child and old man cannot possible perceive time in the infinite being finite themselves.

That the above is stated in the bible is a provable fact (see quotations), and whether those thoughts in fact reflect the thoughts of an Almighty infinite God nobody can prove one way or the other, so that becomes a matter of faith for both the atheist who says "I dont believe God thinks that way" and for the believer that says "I do". I'm sure this thread will be full of people stating their beliefs on the matter, but at least the theist has logic on his side.




JW

[Tcg]

An infinite God would logically not perceive the passing of time as that which is finite. Even a human, as he grows older perceive time differently as a single unit of time diminishes in proportion to his total lifespan (although given diminishing returns it increases in proprtion to his remaining time before death. Even so, "next year" seems an "eternity" to a three year old, since a year is a third of his life, while the same period of time is perceived as relatively short time away to a man in his sixties. The bottom line is, both child and old man cannot possible perceive time in the infinite being finite themselves.

JW

Your "logic" defeats itself. In the same way that you as an adult can understand that a child doesn't comprehend time in the same way an adult does, an infinite God, assuming it also has some minimal degree of intelligence, would understand that humans don't comprehend time in the same way it does.

If this infinite minimally intelligent God intended to communicate reasonably with humans, it would know what "soon" would mean to them and not use it for a time span of thousands of years.

Your argument would only work if this infinite God doesn't posses a minimal degree of intelligence or intended to confuse those it communicated with.


Tcg

[Tcg]

...the atheist who says "I dont believe God thinks that way"

JW

This reasoning represents the all too widespread misunderstanding of atheism. An atheist lacks belief that god/gods exist. Given that, they would posses no beliefs about the way a god thinks.

Atheists do indeed discuss specific concepts of god/gods. This should not be misunderstood as an indication that they possess beliefs about characteristics of the specific god/gods they are discussing.

This conclusion would be as fallacious as concluding that rational adults believe that Santa Claus visits every household in the world simply because they discuss the mythology of Santa.


Tcg

[Avoice]

None of us should put too much stock in what each other say about this or that. Wgo cares what we think. What so many of these debates lack is Gods opinion.

What has God said about ______

His opinion is what counts. We dont have to like his opinion. Whatever our position is we need God to uphold it. We need to search long and hard to see if God would agree with what we are asserting. EVERY OPINION WE HOLD MEANS NOTHING. Unless we can bring God to testify in our defense. And when someone brings God with them yo debate then everyone needs to put their egos away and listen. If God makes us look foolish by turning our truths into lies don't be ashamed or embarrassed. Its a blessing.

Because this forum is about Christianity then the God I speak of as the highest authority is the God of Israel. For those who don't believe in God then your highest authority is yourself. Your opinion has value but it us no better than any other human opinion'

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 2 by Tired of the Nonsense]



HAS THE BIBLE BEEN PROVEN WRONG SINCE IT SPEAKS OF CERTAIN PROPHECIES BEING FULFILLED "SOON" AND "QUICKLY" YET THOUSANDS OF YEARS AFTER BEING WRITTEN THEY REMAIN UNFULFILLED?

It depends on who wrote the passages in question.

An infinite God would logically not perceive the passing of time as that which is finite.

JW

This approach presents a problem for JWs and others who reject the deity of Jesus. It is Jesus himself who reportedly said, “Yes, I am coming soon.� According to JWs and others, these are the words of a man, not an infinite God.

The reasoning that an infinite God would perceive time differently than humans is irrelevant given that Jesus is not considered an infinite God.


Tcg

[Tcg]

Because this forum is about Christianity then the God I speak of as the highest authority is the God of Israel. For those who don't believe in God then your highest authority is yourself. Your opinion has value but it us no better than any other human opinion'

This reasoning fails as it relies on the claimant to trust their judgement to determine what is and is not from God. God is therefore not the highest authority, but rather the claimant's judgement. All who believe in god/gods of any kind set themselves up as the highest authority in that they depend on their human reasoning to determine that a god/gods exist.

Try as we might, all we have is human opinion based on human judgement.


Tcg