Convergence of evidence

[Confused]

In another thread by Achilles, he asks if atheist require more strict standards of examinating evidence of scripture. I am going to ask any theist/or atheist to apply the "Convergence of Evidence" to any event in the OT or the NT that can lead from a hypothesis (bedtime story) to a theory (accepted event). In science, such as with the theory of evolution we draw this evidence from multiple disciplines such as archaeology, palenontology, historical writings/artifacts, geology, biology, chemisty, physics, genetics, etc...... to come to the conclusion of evololution not being simply a hypothesis, but a theory. One continue to learn more about everyday from these disciplines.

So up for grabs here:
1) Pick any extraordinary event that occurred in the NT or OT and prove it with the accepted method of convergence of evidence. In other words, literature alone won't work. You need multiple disciplines to validate your evidence and multiple sources from each discipline to ensure your evidence is reliable.

[Confused]

However, here you will see that even the bible doesn't agree on how Sodom was destroyed so I am not sure the previous evidence given by either of us can account for it at all:
Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? The angels God

Genesis 19:13
For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. Genesis 19:24
The LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.

So did the angels destroy it, of did God with brimstone and fire, or were the angels the "metaphorical' brimstone and fire, or was it in fact the meteor shower as my earlier post hinted at that also destroyed a much larger area as well?

[achilles12604]

However, here you will see that even the bible doesn't agree on how Sodom was destroyed so I am not sure the previous evidence given by either of us can account for it at all:
Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? The angels God

Genesis 19:13
For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. Genesis 19:24
The LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.

So did the angels destroy it, of did God with brimstone and fire, or were the angels the "metaphorical' brimstone and fire, or was it in fact the meteor shower as my earlier post hinted at that also destroyed a much larger area as well?

Ok let me go through this one step at a time.

1) I am unclear as to your premise in this post. Are you saying the bible has conflicting accounts about the destruction of Sodom?

Could you provide the verses which conflict with one another?


2) Your source provided an interesting alternative. I won't dismiss it out of hand, however it does bring up the very important question of Why in over 150 years of excavation have archeologists never found evidence of this occurrence and what is this new evidence that the Pastor speaks of?

3) I must be learning. Here I am the Christian and I am very skeptical of the source material because it comes from a priest/pastor. I have been hanging around Cathar to much I think. Next thing you know I'll be arguing for him instead of against him.






Now despite these right off hand observations, I can say I have no problem with a natural explanation of Sodom's destruction. In fact I believe the solution I offered was entirely natural as well.

The only persons who would have trouble with a natural explanation for this event would be hold a "god of Gaps" mentality. But as I pointed out before, this line of reasoning is self-defeating and frankly silly.

Just because we know HOW god destroyed the city does not mean that he didn't destroy it.

This would be like me crashing a truck through a wall. Then someone comes up and says that because we can determine that the wall was destroyed by a truck, that I didn't destroy the wall.

It is a self-refuting position and certainly not one I hold. So I have no problem with a natural explanation.


Now this may not be what you were looking for. Your OP asked for attestation of a biblical event. You wished for me to support the historicity of an event recounted in the bible. I have done this. In fact you have done this.

However, you did not ask me to prove the applicability of the theological implications of the event. If this was what you wanted me to do, then I'm sorry but there is no way to do this. There is nothing on earth which can assure us of a theological meaning to anything. IT is not within the bounds of science and history to fasten meaning to events. We humans have to do this on our own (or with god's direction depending on your viewpoint).

Now the $10 question that no one will ask because no one really cares : Do I believe in the story of Sodom?

Answer: yes. Am I sure that God destroyed the cities because they were sinful? No. In fact I don't even lean in that direction. I keep it open as a possibility, however I lean more towards this idea that this event occurred, and because of the beliefs of the people, Someone asked why. As this would be a powerful learning tool, a story was attached. ( did I just take my first step towards Atheism? )

NA. I still hold the possibility that God destroyed the city, (although I wonder why considering todays behavior). I still believe in a world flood, the ten plagues of Egypt (with the theology attached) and of course the life, teachings and resurrection of Jesus as my lord and savior. I guess I'm not an atheist after all.

[Cathar1950]

In another thread by Achilles, he asks if atheist require more strict standards of examinating evidence of scripture. I am going to ask any theist/or atheist to apply the "Convergence of Evidence" to any event in the OT or the NT that can lead from a hypothesis (bedtime story) to a theory (accepted event). In science, such as with the theory of evolution we draw this evidence from multiple disciplines such as archaeology, palenontology, historical writings/artifacts, geology, biology, chemisty, physics, genetics, etc...... to come to the conclusion of evololution not being simply a hypothesis, but a theory. One continue to learn more about everyday from these disciplines.

So up for grabs here:
1) Pick any extraordinary event that occurred in the NT or OT and prove it with the accepted method of convergence of evidence. In other words, literature alone won't work. You need multiple disciplines to validate your evidence and multiple sources from each discipline to ensure your evidence is reliable.

Could you be a little more precise about the term 'extrodinary event'. I think Hezeikel's tunnel mentioned in 2 Kings is 'extrodinary' in many respects, and
we have archelogical evidence of it (we found it, including inscriptions dating to the proper time frame, that are mentioned in the Tanakh. However, it is not an event that I would consider 'supernatural'.

I was just reading an archeological article on the tunnel. I will try to find it.
But I guess the tunnel was a engineering mess.
As if they didn't know what they were doing and the miracle was they ever got to finish it.

[The Duke of Vandals]

You could do that for all historical events, but you'd probably have a very thin history book. I think you're trying to introduce a standard for Biblical accounts that you don't impose on the rest of historical events and personalities from antiquity.

Please.

It is CHRISTIANS who are attempting to establish a double standard, not atheists. Any event which has unsupported / supernatural claims in it are false. Christians attempt to shift the burden of proof from "prove this is true" to "prove this is false". The evidence for events in the bible does not past the simplest scrutiny (like the resurrection) or has other natural explanation (such as the commet destroying soddom).

The problem that theists face is the fact their claims cannot be evidenced not because of any increased standard of non-theists, but for the simple fact their claims have no evidence. They are works of (sometimes historical) fiction.

Disagree? Provide evidence.

[Easyrider]

You could do that for all historical events, but you'd probably have a very thin history book. I think you're trying to introduce a standard for Biblical accounts that you don't impose on the rest of historical events and personalities from antiquity.

Please.

It is CHRISTIANS who are attempting to establish a double standard, not atheists. Any event which has unsupported / supernatural claims in it are false. Christians attempt to shift the burden of proof from "prove this is true" to "prove this is false". The evidence for events in the bible does not past the simplest scrutiny (like the resurrection) or has other natural explanation (such as the commet destroying soddom).

The problem that theists face is the fact their claims cannot be evidenced not because of any increased standard of non-theists, but for the simple fact their claims have no evidence. They are works of (sometimes historical) fiction.

Disagree? Provide evidence.

THE SUN DARKENED AT NOON

Circa 750 B.C.

According to Amos 1:1, Amos prophesied during the reigns of Uzziah, king of Judah (767-739 B.C.), and Jeroboam, king of Israel (782-753 B.C.). The name "Amos" is derived from the Hebrew term meaning, "lift a burden," or "burden-bearer" (note Isaiah 9:4, speaking of the coming Messiah as one who would carry our burdens, and also Matthew 11:28). His calling by God was to foretell of pending judgments upon a number of surrounding nations, and particularly of a coming judgment upon Israel. As is common with other Biblical prophets, along with the promise of impending judgment, God also gave Amos a glimpse of events that would soon occur in the life of the coming Messiah, though the significance of what was prophesied may or may not have been made known to Amos. And so it is in the Old Testament book of Amos that we find a prophecy that for many centuries was looked upon with wonder and curiosity:

"'In that day,' declares the Sovereign Lord, 'I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight....I will make that time like mourning for an only son, and the end of it like a bitter day.'" (Amos 8:9-10)

It probably wasn't until the day of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in 32 A.D. that the prophecy of Amos took on clarity and meaning, for in Matthew 27:45 Jesus had just been nailed to the cross when the Bible records:

"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land."

Just as the "Star of Bethlehem" marked the birth of Christ, so now God brought forth another celestial miracle to pronounce His death. This prophecy is one of those that is beyond the control of mortal man, and as such it dispels the theory that Christ could have manipulated events so as to make it appear that He was the Messiah. But is there any evidence that this really occurred? Did the sun go dark at noonday? In his book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict (Volume 1, pages 81-87), Josh McDowell provides the following historical evidence that what took place at Calvary was more that just fanciful mythology:

Concerning the Samaritan-born historian Thallus, circa 52 A.D: (The writings of Thallus no longer exist, yet were alluded to by the historian Julius Africanus, as follows): "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun - unreasonably, as it seems to me - unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of a full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died."

Likewise, Africanus wrote concerning the writings of another first century historian by the name of Phlegon: "....during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon."

Phlegon is also mentioned by the historian Origen in his work, "Contra Celsum," book 2, sections 14, 39, and 59: "Phlegon mentioned the eclipse that took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Christ....and this is shown by the historical account itself of Tiberius Caesar." Apparently at one time there were historical accounts of the strange darkness that came over the land that were kept in the official archives of Tiberius Caesar, though they are likely lost to history.

Finally, the 2nd century Roman born jurist and theologian Tertullian referred to a Roman archives report of an "unexplained darkness that took place during the reign of Tiberius Caesar, as can be seen in the archives of Pontius Pilate."

The darkness spoken of in the book of Matthew occurred between noon and three P.M. in the afternoon (from the sixth to the ninth hours, as the Jews were noted as referring to the sixth and the ninth hours of daylight). Note that a solar eclipse will take less than an hour to complete, and a total solar eclipse lasts just a few minutes. This, coupled with the fact that a solar eclipse cannot occur during a full moon (the moon would be on the 'other' side of the earth), provides further evidence that what occurred was something other than an eclipse of the sun. Just what it was no one can say for sure, just that from recorded historical sources there was a strange darkness during the time of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. From God's perspective, it surely was a time of mourning for His only begotten son.

So there you have it: The prophecy, the Biblical accounts, and extra-biblical confirmations. Jesus is Lord!



REFERENCE

McDowell, Josh. Evidence That Demands A Verdict (Vol. 1). Thomas Nelson
Publishers. Nashville. 1972.

[Goat]

THE SUN DARKENED AT NOON

Circa 750 B.C.


McDowell, Josh. Evidence That Demands A Verdict (Vol. 1). Thomas Nelson
Publishers. Nashville. 1972.

You have cut/paste that at least 3 or 4 times already, and never ONCE responded to the refuting of it.

How boring.

[Cathar1950]

Easyrider,
Having read the book(McDowell) years ago I can say;

No foundation!

His work has been refuted and found lacking.
It only convinces the believers because they refuse to read anything they disagree with.
I just was reading Tim Callahan's book "Bible Prophesy:Failure or fulfillment"
Where he ripes each so called prophesy to little pieces.

I remember Goat and others refuting your so called evidence and found that you did ignore it. But it never stops you from repeating it over and over.

I just got nauseous from reading you again in:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?p=99073
"Why is the bible form God?"

[Easyrider]

Easyrider,
Having read the book(McDowell) years ago I can say;

No foundation!

His work has been refuted and found lacking.

Not what I presented. Deal with that.

I just was reading Tim Callahan's book "Bible Prophesy:Failure or fulfillment"
Where he ripes each so called prophesy to little pieces.

I remember Goat and others refuting your so called evidence and found that you did ignore it. But it never stops you from repeating it over and over.

In your dreams. Never happened.

I just got nauseous from reading you again in:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?p=99073
"Why is the bible form God?"

That's your problem, not mine. Maybe you should pray about it so God can open your eyes.

[Cathar1950]

And so it is in the Old Testament book of Amos that we find a prophecy that for many centuries was looked upon with wonder and curiosity:
"'In that day,' declares the Sovereign Lord, 'I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight....I will make that time like mourning for an only son, and the end of it like a bitter day.'" (Amos 8:9-10)

It probably wasn't until the day of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in 32 A.D. that the prophecy of Amos took on clarity and meaning, for in Matthew 27:45 Jesus had just been nailed to the cross when the Bible records:

"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land."

Just as the "Star of Bethlehem" marked the birth of Christ, so now God brought forth another celestial miracle to pronounce His death. This prophecy is one of those that is beyond the control of mortal man, and as such it dispels the theory that Christ could have manipulated events so as to make it appear that He was the Messiah. But is there any evidence that this really occurred? Did the sun go dark at noonday? In his book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict (Volume 1, pages 81-87), Josh McDowell provides the following historical evidence that what took place at Calvary was more that just fanciful mythology:

Concerning the Samaritan-born historian Thallus, circa 52 A.D: (The writings of Thallus no longer exist, yet were alluded to by the historian Julius Africanus, as follows): "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun - unreasonably, as it seems to me - unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of a full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died."

Likewise, Africanus wrote concerning the writings of another first century historian by the name of Phlegon: "....during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon."

What an amazing little story of wonderment and fancy.
So God is morning just "like" a real dad for his real son.
It could be servant, king, priest, prophet, or even Israel.
It was most likely a eclipse in Amos' mind.
I am guessing the story from Amos found itself in the stories of Jesus and it never happened. Much like the other prophesies.

Not what I presented. Deal with that...
In your dreams. Never happened...

I decided to take those out of context because it means nothing to you.
But you were also wrong on every count.

I did a search on Africanus just because It has come up so many times and this is what you are asking to address as it relates to McDowell.
I notice you keep repeating things as proof and evidence even after it is found questionable. It makes any challenge coming from you a farce and a waste of time.
My search came up with 68 the oldest going back to this one. There were older ones but they were dealing with evolution so I excluded them. Hopefully I am not in error.



http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58895&highlight=africanus#58895
Post 32: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:09 pm

Extrabiblical writings such as Tactius, Thallus, Josephus and others attest to the historical Jesus.

Thallus?Who he? There are no such writings by such a man. This is a Christian myth. Even the dubious quotes by Africanus , a Christian writer, never claim that somebody called Thallus mentioned Jesus.

Tacitus never mentions 'Jesus'. Josephus is,of course, tampered by Christians and so hardly counts as evidence.

If I produced a work by a non-Muslim writer mentioning Muhammad, and admitted that Muslim writers had tampered with it, would you take that as evidence of what the historical Muhammad did?

The fame of Jesus was supposed to have spread far and wide so that even kings were eager to meet him.

Strange that nobody seemed to have noticed all these miracles. Gibbon wrote about it.

But how shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world , to those evidences which were presented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies. The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, demons were expelled, and the laws of Nature were frequently suspended for the benefit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral or physical government of the world.
Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire, was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours. Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notice in an age of science and history. It happened during the lifetime of Seneca and the elder Pliny, who must have experienced the immediate effects, or received the earliest intelligence, of the prodigy.

Each of these philosophers, in a laborious work, has recorded all the great phenomena of Nature, earthquakes, meteors, comets, and eclipses, which his indefatigable curiosity could collect . Both the one and the other have omitted to mention the greatest phenomenon to which the mortal eye has been witness since the creation of the globe.

A distinct chapter of Pliny is designed for eclipses of an extraordinary nature and unusual duration; but he contents himself with describing the singular defect of light which followed the murder of Caesar.

Here is one Goat gave back in Aug 2006. Where does the time go?

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... anus#73625

Post 300: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:56 pm
Goat answering FiredUp4jesus
There is a problem with Thallus. First of all, we don't have any of thallus's words itself. We have the interpretation of Justin Martyr, who was writting in the mid 2nd century. Now, we have no other indication there was a 'darkness' and an earthquake from a secular source.. we just have the gospels, and the hopeful interpreation of someone who was writing 100 years after the fact, and misinterpreting Thallus. Thallus was most likely refering to the eclipse that would have happened in Nov of 29. This was before the ministry of John the Baptist (who Jospehus had killed in 36 C.E)

In addition, an ecplise would have lasted about 30 to 40 minutes, while the 'darkness' in the gospels lasted 3 hours.

The most charitable way to talk about Justin Martyrs discussion about Thallus is that he was mistaken.

Here I am almost 20 days ago answering with a quote from Ehrman.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?

p=96522&highlight=africanus#96522
Post 236: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:23 pm
Cathar1950 in response to Biker
Quote:
Thallus, the Samaritan-born historian (A.D. 52), wrote in the third book of his histories, "It was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died" (as recorded by Julius Africanus, A.D. 221).


None of your first long paragraph of witnesses are witnesses of Jesus but rather they are more witnesses of followers long after the events. There are no known copies of Julius Africanus and the gospel differ on when Jesus died. John was making Jesus out to be a Passover lamb while Luke wants no part of Jesus dying for the sins of man but sees him vindicated at his resurrection.

As far as the gospels go the differences are obvious. The inconsistencies in Acts alone are enough to show they are not historical. They do not agree with Paul’s accounts in his letters and do not even agree in the work itself. If you read Acts 9,22 and 26 you get three different stories concerning Paul’s conversion. (“Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene; B. Ehrman).

If you do a search on Easyrider and Africanus you should get 12 hits and I am sure someone broke the news to him at one time or another.

And here was one from Bernee.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... anus#58895

Post 17: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:01 pm

bernee51 wrote:
The extra-biblical conirmation: In a lost work referred to by Julius Africanus in the third century, the pagan writer Thallus reportedly claimed that Jesus's death was accompanied by an earthquake and darkness. However, the original text is in fact lost, and the actual contents of the text or its date cannot be confirmed.