Is the Holy Book holy?

[marco]

Here are two excerpts from the Holy Book:

1. Then Samuel said, Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites. Agag came to him cheerfully, for he thought, Surely the bitterness of death is past. But Samuel declared: As your sword has made women childless, so your mother will be childless among women. And Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the LORD at Gilgal.


2. David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine's sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword.

Samuel and David are revered, apparently favourites of Yahweh. Their actions here sound savage.

Does this cast doubt on the holiness of the Bible?
Does it suggest Yahweh is in favour of savagery?

[SallyF]

Holy ? Definitely not. Primitive, superstitious barbarity.

As depicted in this quaint imagery, available for $5.00 from . wait for it yes members ChristArt.

For your very own copy (perhaps for the kiddies and the next Bible Camp ?) go here:

https://www.christart.com/clipart/image/agag

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Is the Holy Book holy? Why include killing?

Because killing is sometimes what has to be done in the war between good and evil.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke

It is generally considered dishonourable to forget the battles of those that fought for the values one believes in. It is for this reason national records preserve the exploits of their warriors. So each generation does not forget how the came to enjoy the freedom to criticise those that fought and killed in wartime.

Is the Holy Book holy? Why include killing?

The question was not about warfare ...

Were you unaware that both of the instances you refer to were of the enemy during wartime ; an enemy that would no doubt have done the same if the tables were reversed?

The question was not about warfare but about brutal killing.

Emphasis MINE

Is there any other kind? What do you expect them to have done, given them a handful of sleeping pills, a bottle of whiskey and some privacy! These were the days of hand to hand combat, it was brutal! This was up close, face to face one-on-one combat, men went in with swords swinging.. they would have had arms hacked off, heads, faces sliced in half.... those that survived would have been drenched in blood...have you never seen Braveheart?

As for David taking off Goliaths head, of COURSE he cut if his head to ensure he was dead, did you not read of the size of the man! A very basic in that kind of situation would surely have bee to ensure your opponent is dead before turning your back on him. What did you think Goliath would have done to David if it were the other way round, tickled him to death? Requested a song on his harp?! He would have cut that boy in half as well as looked at him (and I'm not speaking figuratively), those swords were razor sharp and Goliaths could have easily cut David in half....

Those that wail "The horror! THE HORROR" (while getting themselves a nice warm glass if milk to keep up their strength for another round of online debate) do well to contemplate what their own ancestors had to do to ensure they can type a question about....* cough* "non-brutal" *cough" ... wartime killing.

As for Agag, the instructions were to take no prisoners, that is what Saul should have done and that is what Samuel ensured. His words indicate there was absolutely no basis for clemency.




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[SallyF]

And just to remind the Christian kiddies that some people NEED to be killed (thank you Member JehovahsWitness) the Word of God in the Holy Bible gives us LOTS of lovely examples of how this may be done.

Depicted again by our very good friends at ChristArt, with David beheading Goliath yours for only $5.00

https://www.christart.com/clipart/image ... nd-goliath

And I rather suspect the Holy (biblical) Book is where Muslim extremists take their lessons and inspiration. There are NO stories of beheading in THEIR Holy Book.

[Tart]

Holy ? Definitely not. Primitive, superstitious barbarity.

As depicted in this quaint imagery, available for $5.00 from . wait for it yes members ChristArt.

For your very own copy (perhaps for the kiddies and the next Bible Camp ?) go here:

https://www.christart.com/clipart/image/agag

Im with you here Sally....

I cant think of any Christian I would donate money to, unless, well i ponder it at least... I would like to give away money because an act of Charity.... But to who????

I dont even like the churches i go to.. I give it to homeless people all the time, but who knows what they use it on, but maybe i shouldnt care?? "just take my money!".... I suppose i could donate to this site... Though, im on my final warning which makes me question its authority...

Maybe i should just start burning money for God??? Im serious too... That actually might be a, somewhat, of a giving act... Your money isnt going to any evilness, you can be sure of that... I really might do this... Every Sunday just burn a 20$ bill... "thanks for my life God, here's to ridding the world of evil"

[marco]

So you do understand the consequences of sin, that was the intent of the strict enforcement of the law in the Old Testament. The Old Testament law is the school master to teach men the consequences of sin. The New Testament shows us the grace that God grants via belief in Jesus. Without strict enforcement of the law in the old testament you would never understand the consequences of sin the way that you do.

I cannot see that my understanding of the consequences of actions has anything in common with the brutes that populate the Bible. I accept, in general terms, that in some distant fashion we are indebted to the caveman who formed an axe as a tool or to the person who saw the benefits of a wheel. The content of the Bible, giving punishments for "transgressions" may have kept savages from being too savage: it has nothing to offer us except a feeling of gratitude that Yahweh and his hordes have gone.

Laws are made by man. Prayers are offered, uselessly, to God. Everything useful that we have man has supplied. We fight the imperfections of the created world by using intelligence, not prayer.

[marco]

As for Agag, the instructions were to take no prisoners, that is what Saul should have done and that is what Samuel ensured. His words indicate there was absolutely no basis for clemency.

Thanks for this clarification. As I said we are offered brutality in what is sometimes called a Holy Book. I am reminded that the German guards said they were "only following instructions." You provide excuses, but the savagery remains. Let us not call it justice and goodness or even chivalry.

[marco]

Maybe i should just start burning money for God??? Im serious too... That actually might be a, somewhat, of a giving act... Your money isnt going to any evilness, you can be sure of that... I really might do this... Every Sunday just burn a 20$ bill... "thanks for my life God, here's to ridding the world of evil"

That form of service - hurting to please God - was tried by pious monks who would whip themselves and wear hair shirts. It is called mortifying the flesh. Christ's advice to those who want to burn money for God is give it to a charity without advertising the act. Some years after you have died you will ask the question: "But when did I give you money, Lord?" And you'll find the answer in Matthew 25:40.

[marco]

And I rather suspect the Holy (biblical) Book is where Muslim extremists take their lessons and inspiration. There are NO stories of beheading in THEIR Holy Book.

Perhaps not but let's not grow too enthusiastic about Koranic poetry. Here's what happens to the unbelievers:



4:56 Those who reject the Quran, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

5:38 As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in Power. Full of Wisdom.


David is Sir Galahad by comparison. Muhammad made sure his book was "holier".

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 2 by marco]

Unfortunately, I suspect Christians will only respond to the OP with their standard apologetic, "Anything done or commanded by God in accordance with his supreme will will be considered Holy, even if our fallible human minds cannot comprehend the necessity of it." They will argue that God, being the creator of all things, has the freedom and authority to do whatever he wants with his creations.

Of course, we should recognize that having the capacity to create intelligent beings does not make it morally permissible or "Holy" for a creator to mistreat or command the mistreatment of her sentient creations anymore than a mother has the right to abuse her child or command her child to act abusively towards another child. When humans eventually succeed in creating artificial sentient life, I doubt Christians will claim that any cruelty inflicted upon those created life forms by their human creators would be justified in the same way they try to justify the barbaric actions committed by their God and his chosen people as described in the Bible.

Furthermore, most Christians would probably find it morally repugnant if human creators of artificial sentient beings permitted and encouraged their creations to glorify and worship them. I expect many Christians will attempt to argue that any human creators of artificial sentient life would still be fallible and unworthy of being worshiped as "Holy" deities unlike their infallible creator God. However, such an argument ignores the fact that it would still be morally superior for an infallible creator of intelligent beings to humbly discourage her creations from worshiping her as a "Holy" deity even they felt she deserved the glorification.

[Tart]

Maybe i should just start burning money for God??? Im serious too... That actually might be a, somewhat, of a giving act... Your money isnt going to any evilness, you can be sure of that... I really might do this... Every Sunday just burn a 20$ bill... "thanks for my life God, here's to ridding the world of evil"

That form of service - hurting to please God - was tried by pious monks who would whip themselves and wear hair shirts. It is called mortifying the flesh. Christ's advice to those who want to burn money for God is give it to a charity without advertising the act. Some years after you have died you will ask the question: "But when did I give you money, Lord?" And you'll find the answer in Matthew 25:40.

Yes sir thank you. I just question it is all... Like if a homeless man ask me to buy him a shot of whisky, but maybe i would be frowned on if i did that. But what if he asks for money, i give him it, and he buys the whiskey himself? Maybe his bad, and my good? Does it matter at all what he does with the money? Im just giving to Charity? Maybe its best i dont even know, and just do it cheerfully, live faithful and hope for the best?

Really i wasnt even questioning this till i was at church last Sunday, and I dont even know if i trust the church.. i was pondering it... Like i'd give my money to a preacher who isnt appreciating it, and who knows? Maybe he doesnt even like me as a person. Im just giving a guy money who gives me a bunch of words, and a fake smile and a hand shake. Made me start questioning what's the point of giving... Like truly?

You're right though, thank you for the verse, i like to meditate on the Word even if i dont understand it, or it upsets me...