First principles

[Danmark]

Descartes famously asked 'What do we know? How do we know it?'
He started with 'cogito ergo sum,' I think therefore I am.
How do we know anything?

All religions start from the premise that a member of their tribe was told by a god that this is the truth, that there is a god. Thousands of cultures have come up with a god that is the god. How does one determine which god is true? How does one determine if there is a god?

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people? Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures? Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

[JehovahsWitness]

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people?

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses


Yes in his own due time in accord with his will and purpose.

Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures?

No not necessarily. If the President had something to communicate to his citizens would you expect a personal visit from him before yoy would take it seriously?

Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

Because he is intersted in humble teachable leadable people with a sincere desire to serve him, something which becomes evident only when offered help by a human being. Proud people will wait for the Almighty God to contact them directly and happiliy get on with doing what they want to do in the mean time. We can think of it as a kjnd of "personality test", similar to : "Would you accept my son as the Messiah if he was born in a barn and came not from a royal family but was a manual worker from the backwoods of Nazareth?"

The proud don't like to be told they need help, much less from those they consider poor, uneducated and disrepsected. Humble honest hearted people will ask "Do you know the True God? Can you help me find Him?

ZECHARIAH 8:23

This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.�’�

Jehovahs Witnesses currently spend billions of hours visiting people at their homes. They offer to help them find the True God.






JEHIVAHS WITNESS

Further reading: Are You Convinced That You Have the Truth? Why?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... ave-truth/[/quote]



RELATED POSTS

How can a person find religious truth?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p795583

What is "truth"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 24#p840124

How does one come to accept something as true?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p838455

Go to other posts related to...

RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

[ttruscott]

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people?

I accept the understanding of the bible that GOD has indeed already proven HIS deity to all people created in HIS image, Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--HAVE BEEN CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, SO THAT PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. I accept also that Colossians 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and THAT HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED TO EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. contends every person has already heard and made a decision about the gospel, the good news that salvation from sin is available in the Christ.

This suggests that this quote of yours:

Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures?

is wrongly accepted. GOD does NOT call all people to HIM, HE calls HIS people BACK TO HIM from out of the world of the people who have eternally rejected HIM. HE has no trouble speaking to those who are HIS in their inner ear or thru HIS book.

Therefore I don't accept that people are created here to be brought to GOD but that they are here to be either saved by repentance from the consequences of already having rejected GOD or, if they can't repent, to be the bad example for the others who can repent.

Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

This shows you have missed the mark because as a premise it fails. HE relies upon them not in the least! GOD's people are called to come out from the worldly people and back to HIM, not try to bring the Satanic to HIM.

[Danmark]

If a lecturer attempts to impart information but leaves many of his students in doubt as to his meaning, he is a bad lecturer. If God's intention is to identify himself, then the appearance of a symmetrical snowflake or the regular motion of the stars does not do it convincingly. It provides food for thought.

Yahweh of course is an absurdity, an insult to human reason. It is hard to find anything at all that can be extracted from Yahweh tales that would provide us with meaning in our lives. We are better off with Euclid's geometry.

If God's intention is to make the world atheistic, he is on the right path, but still has a long way to go.

Alternatively, a teacher or parent who hands all the ansers to a child, leaving them no opportunity to figure things out for themselves, is perhaps even worse than the one who offers confusion. According to some stories Yahweh introduced himself to Moses as simply "I am who I am" and forbade any further attempts to put an image or form to the name; other stories insist that Yahweh is jealous and vengeful and obsessively concerned with what people use their naughty bits for. Did the clarity really improve things any?

If there were indeed a god, I wonder what information she should be expected to unambiguously communicate with us, assuming all the 'damned to eternal torment if you don't believe everything Bob tells you' stuff is nonsense?

The Socratic method is a great tool for the teacher, in some situations. It's great for helping the student think, to learn how to learn. OTOH, sometimes the student simply needs raw data. If you don't have basic knowledge, you have nothing to work with, no blocks to manipulate no matter how skilled one may be in building with blocks.

The "I am who I am" announcement is for me the most profound statement in the Bible, perhaps in all of theology. At the opposite end of the spectrum is the tedious and infinite detail found in Levitical nonsense.

What is so transparently nonsensical for me is the notion that this great I AM, this universal ultimate of existence, would choose to make itself known just like all the other phony man made 'gods,' as a 'god' of one specific tribe. To claim that one culture, or one person is such a God's only conduit to mankind suggests a God who is either stupid or likes to promote strife; certainly not a compassionate and wise God.

If there really is a great I AM then surely it respects the very people who reject these tribal imposters.

[Danmark]

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people?

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses


Yes in his own due time in accord with his will and purpose.

As I alluded in post 23, this is a crucial point. Why wait 200,000 years? Why wait even the 6000 or so encompassed by the Biblical time frame? Why have a false start that requires in this perfect God repenting his initial mistake and destroying virtually ALL of his creation? This is nonsensical on its face.

This 'all in God's due time' approach has resulted in the opposite of what you might expect. Instead of coming nearer to understanding "his will and purpose," we are farther from it.
Out of 2.42 Billion 'Christians' today, only 8.5 million (JW's) managed to get it right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... of_members

The number of different Christian sects is virtually uncountable and even the one true church can't seem to agree on what's what. Even that lucky third of a percent cannot agree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... ter_groups

And for Ted, this analysis is even more extreme since he is in a sect of his own. Correct me if I got that wrong Ted, but as I understand your belief system, your personal denomination consists of just one person, you.

[ttruscott]

Correct me if I got that wrong Ted, but as I understand your belief system, your personal denomination consists of just one person, you.

PCE is not a denomination but a theology which allows the denominations to break free from the blasphemies that are the foundation of their system.

The people who accept pce are scattered throughout all of the denominations and either are taken to be using naive but not doctrinally correct language or they hide their beliefs because they are scorned for them...

but every time a person refers to death as going home it is a pce doctrine they express, very anti-orthodox.

[Danmark]

Correct me if I got that wrong Ted, but as I understand your belief system, your personal denomination consists of just one person, you.

PCE is not a denomination but a theology which allows the denominations to break free from the blasphemies that are the foundation of their system.

The people who accept pce are scattered throughout all of the denominations and either are taken to be using naive but not doctrinally correct language or they hide their beliefs because they are scorned for them...

but every time a person refers to death as going home it is a pce doctrine they express, very anti-orthodox.

I'm getting afield from my own sub topic, but what is PCE? Is there a website that explains it? Have you ever met another PCE'r? Did you agree on everything? Anything?

[JehovahsWitness]

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people?

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses


Yes in his own due time in accord with his will and purpose.

As I alluded in post 23, this is a crucial point. Why wait 200,000 years?

Biblically man has'nt been around for 200, 000 years, we have been here a mere 6,000 which still seems a long time but in the scheme of things isn't very long at all. Why wait 6000 years? Because it has taken this long to settle the issues raised in Eden.





JW


Would an infinite God perceive "time" as those that are finite?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 684#987684

Why has God permitted wickedness and suffering for so long?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 001#910001

[ttruscott]

I'm getting afield from my own sub topic, but what is PCE? Is there a website that explains it? Have you ever met another PCE'r? Did you agree on everything? Anything?

PCE is the theology that explains the Bible from the pov that all persons created in the image of GOD were created before (Pre) their conception (Conception) as humans, that is they had an existence (Existence) before their conception on earth.

Right now the best website to explain the various aspects of PCE is this one: viewtopic.php?t=30413

Yes, I have met some and I am friends with them. No, we do not agree on everything, though most are not theologians nor interested in theology, sigh, but they have no problem with my characterizations of PCE. For instance, my wife who is not theologically inclined asked me what I was working on and when I told her said: Oh yeah, my mother taught me that as a kid...!

[Elijah John]

No other religion on the face of the planet can ckaim [sic] a national revelation. Other religions started with one person or a small group of people.

This is amusing. Didn't Jesus and Christianity start with "one person" and "a small group of people?"

I think that's his point. Only Judaism began with a national, mass epiphany. Christianity did not. Sinai is a long way from Bethlehem.

[JehovahsWitness]

Out of 2.42 Billion 'Christians' today, only 8.5 million (JW's) managed to get it right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... of_members

Yes that's exactly what the official Jehovahs Witness belief is. (There were only 8 people that survived the flood, that should give you an idea how God feels about numbers.) Truth is not established by popular vote, if it were the earth would still be flat.

Anyway apart from proving you can count and know how to use wikipedia did you a have a point to make in relation to the OP? Is it that if there is one God everyone on earth would agree about how to worship him, even atheists?


JW