Why won't God just appear and end this debate?

[achilles12604]

This quesiton has been posed in various ways on this forum since I arrived. Welshboy is the most recent to ask so I am making it a thread. I hope it isn't one already.

Here is my own ideas about why God choses not to directly appear and cause everyone to believe in him.

If God does exist then he is a force of unimaginable power and magisty.

Human's, especially those who reject the supernatural, have a tendency to think they know everything about everything around them. This grants them the ability to reject God. They can freely reject God and any ideas of God because they feel safe doing so.

Now lets say God did appear or do something which would make his existence undeniable to a reasonable person. Now this same person could easily feel compelled to obey and follow God out of nothing but fear of him.

This is not what Christian theology teaches. God wants people to WANT to come to him. Just as every human wants someone to want them, so to with God. It isn't a NEED per se, but then it isn't a NEED for people either. But is certainly does allow the person to experience many things that they otherwise would have never been able to feel.

Question: Is my logic consistent? Have I created and logical fallacies in this line of reasoning?

[Biker]

Biker wrote:

The Bible is the source of truth, we don't need the inferior source of data (science) to prove anything regarding the true and only source of ultimate truth, the inerrant Word of God. Science needs to stick to the easy stuff, leave the stuff that matters to the Bible. Science has proved no error in the Bible. All science does is show it ignorance of spiritual and Biblical things, when it comes to relating it as disproving anything in the Bible. Science changes interpretation of data daily, the Bible is unchanging, constant, truth. The Bible is: The Final Authority, it checks science not the other way around.

This is you right?
Or did you copy it from some 19th century apologist?

Biker wrote every word and meant every word. The Bible always tells the truth about everything it talks about, every time. One who wants to know ultimate, authoritative, superior, truth, reads and studies, and correctly understands the Bible. The words of Scripture are self attesting. They cannot be "proved" to be Gods words by appeal to any higher authority. For if an appeal to some higher authority (say, historical accuracy or logical consistency) were used to prove that the Bible is Gods Word, then the Bible itself would not be our highest or absolute authority: it would be subordinate in authority to the thing to which we appealed to prove it to be Gods Word. If we ultimately appeal to human reason, or to logic, or to historical accuracy, or to scientific truth, as the authority by which Scripture is shown to be Gods words, then we have assumed the thing to which we appealed to be a higher authority than Gods words and one that is more true or more reliable. And the Bible is the more authoritive, the truth. So the statement such as "science proves the Bible is wrong" is a sham.
So the statement is actually more 1st century than 19th century.

Biker

[WelshBoy]

Biker,

There was no global flood in Noah's time, or rather up to 110,000 years ago. The Bible is not literally true in every case. I have evidence to support my claim, refute it with more than your special plea, or please explain why the data is wrong.

God gave you reason. Use it.

[McCulloch]

Here is a reason why this particular debate will never end.

So, what are we to do when someone approaches us with an alleged Bible error? (1) Prayerfully study the problem and see if there is a simple solution. (2) Do some research using some of the fine Bible commentaries, "Bible defense" books, and Biblical research websites that are available. (3) Ask the helpful servants at www.gotquestions.org or your pastor to see if they can find a solution. (4) If there is still no clear answer after steps (1), (2), and (3) are followed - trust God that His Word is truth and that there is a solution that just simply has not been realized yet (2 Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17).

I have few problems with (1), (2) and (3) other than the one-sidedness of the approach. Honest scholars attempting to resolve these kinds of issues would not only ask for help from those on one side of the debate but should also seek out possible difficulties and inconsistencies with proposed answers from skeptics or by debate.

However, (4) is intellectually dishonest. Essentially, it is saying, "If you cannot resolve the difficulty, if rational thought and evidence is against the position that you hold, believe it anyway because God wants you to."

[Biker]

Biker,

There was no global flood in Noah's time, or rather up to 110,000 years ago. The Bible is not literally true in every case. I have evidence to support my claim, refute it with more than your special plea, or please explain why the data is wrong.

God gave you reason. Use it.

Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure?
If so do believe He was who He said He was, and did what was said He said He did?
I do, along with an innumerable amount of people who have and who do.
Jesus affirmed the flood as described in the Bible. That is proof enough for me.
If you have proof of something different, give it.

Biker

[Biker]

Here is a reason why this particular debate will never end.

So, what are we to do when someone approaches us with an alleged Bible error? (1) Prayerfully study the problem and see if there is a simple solution. (2) Do some research using some of the fine Bible commentaries, "Bible defense" books, and Biblical research websites that are available. (3) Ask the helpful servants at www.gotquestions.org or your pastor to see if they can find a solution. (4) If there is still no clear answer after steps (1), (2), and (3) are followed - trust God that His Word is truth and that there is a solution that just simply has not been realized yet (2 Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17).

I have few problems with (1), (2) and (3) other than the one-sidedness of the approach. Honest scholars attempting to resolve these kinds of issues would not only ask for help from those on one side of the debate but should also seek out possible difficulties and inconsistencies with proposed answers from skeptics or by debate.

However, (4) is intellectually dishonest. Essentially, it is saying, "If you cannot resolve the difficulty, if rational thought and evidence is against the position that you hold, believe it anyway because God wants you to."

Why? That is the position of science, history, logic, reason. You subscribe to them wholesale. If I have your position correctly, your an Atheist who believes there is no God which in of itself is an absolute, depending on unabsolute information to arrive at an absolute statement. Tell me why that makes sense???

Biker

[McCulloch]

Jesus affirmed the flood as described in the Bible. That is proof enough for me.

Why?

[Biker]

Here is a reason why this particular debate will never end.

So, what are we to do when someone approaches us with an alleged Bible error? (1) Prayerfully study the problem and see if there is a simple solution. (2) Do some research using some of the fine Bible commentaries, "Bible defense" books, and Biblical research websites that are available. (3) Ask the helpful servants at www.gotquestions.org or your pastor to see if they can find a solution. (4) If there is still no clear answer after steps (1), (2), and (3) are followed - trust God that His Word is truth and that there is a solution that just simply has not been realized yet (2 Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17).

I have few problems with (1), (2) and (3) other than the one-sidedness of the approach. Honest scholars attempting to resolve these kinds of issues would not only ask for help from those on one side of the debate but should also seek out possible difficulties and inconsistencies with proposed answers from skeptics or by debate.

However, (4) is intellectually dishonest. Essentially, it is saying, "If you cannot resolve the difficulty, if rational thought and evidence is against the position that you hold, believe it anyway because God wants you to."

Why? That is the position of science, history, logic, reason. You subscribe to them wholesale. If I have your position correctly, your an Atheist who believes there is no God which in of itself is an absolute, depending on unabsolute information to arrive at an absolute statement. Tell me why that makes sense???

Biker

Mac,
You are always making statements the Word of God is not Truth. You are depending on information you regard as more authority. Tell me why it is? Show me how it is? What makes it more authority?

Biker

[Biker]

Jesus affirmed the flood as described in the Bible. That is proof enough for me.

Why?

Show me where He lied?

Biker

[Goat]

Jesus affirmed the flood as described in the Bible. That is proof enough for me.

Why?

Show me where He lied?

Biker

Can you show me where he actually wrote it, and not have someone put words in his mouth, decades after the fact?

[McCulloch]

Mac,
You are always making statements the Word of God is not Truth.

You misunderstand me. I have not made any statement to the effect that the Word of God is not Truth. I have, on more than one occasion, clearly stated that if there is a God, his Word must be true.

What I question is your repeated assertion that the Bible is the Word of God. How do you know that? I do not think that the Bible is the Word of God. I have not been given any reason to believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

Jesus affirmed the flood as described in the Bible. That is proof enough for me.

Why?

Show me where He lied?

Do you simply believe every assertion made by anyone so long as you have not been shown that the person has lied? It looks to me as if you believe that there was a flood because an anonymous writer says that an ancient prophet said that an even older book said that there was a flood. I asked you why you find the fact that the gospels say that Jesus described the flood enough evidence to believe in such a thing against other evidence and all you can come up with is, "Show me where He lied?"