Should Christians keep the law?

[otseng]

From the thread Keeping the commandments:

Do you keep the law?

Questions for debate:
Should Christians keep the law?
If so, how much of the laws should we keep?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 5 by 2timothy316]

Curse of the law? Are you kidding? You quote Paul? Curse he says and you believe him? You really believe that, huh? Who is he to tell you? The law comes out if the Hebrew Scriptures so how about quoting from there.

A curse? Do you hear what you are saying? Now hear from the book of the law:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

"Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;

I never did get a response to my reply to your comment here. Here is a link to my reply.

viewtopic.php?p=991388#991388

[otseng]

What is the law? It would be the Torah. According to Wikipedia, "law" is not the best translation of Torah. Rather, it should be teaching, doctrine, instruction, custom, theory, guidance, system.

The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root ", which in the hif'il conjugation means 'to guide' or 'to teach' (cf. Lev 10:11). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression.[8] The Alexandrian Jews who translated the Septuagint used the Greek word nomos, meaning norm, standard, doctrine, and later "law". Greek and Latin Bibles then began the custom of calling the Pentateuch (five books of Moses) The Law. Other translational contexts in the English language include custom, theory, guidance, or system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

The Torah can refer to:
- first five books (Pentateuch or five books of Moses)
- entire Jewish Bible
- written and oral tradition
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

[2timothy316]

What is the law? It would be the Torah. According to Wikipedia, "law" is not the best translation of Torah. Rather, it should be teaching, doctrine, instruction, custom, theory, guidance, system.

The word "Torah" in Hebrew is derived from the root ", which in the hif'il conjugation means 'to guide' or 'to teach' (cf. Lev 10:11). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching", "doctrine", or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression.[8] The Alexandrian Jews who translated the Septuagint used the Greek word nomos, meaning norm, standard, doctrine, and later "law". Greek and Latin Bibles then began the custom of calling the Pentateuch (five books of Moses) The Law. Other translational contexts in the English language include custom, theory, guidance, or system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

The Torah can refer to:
- first five books (Pentateuch or five books of Moses)
- entire Jewish Bible
- written and oral tradition
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

Ooooo I do love a really good question.

It seems to me the "Torah" or "Law" as many accept it is much like saying the Word of God. This is an all encompassing blanket word for the Bible, both Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. Is the "Law" in the Bible? Yes. It is an excellent idea though that we should nail down, "The Law".

When I hear, the Torah, I think of the 5 books written by Moses. However, I use Pentateuch more than the word Torah. Using the word Pentateuch or "Five Rolls" is a much clearer definition. When I hear "the Law" I think of the Mosaic Law Covenant. This term magnifies the laws that the Hebrews entered into an agreement with Jehovah God.

"Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites. So Moses went and summoned the elders of the people and declared to them all these words that Jehovah had commanded him. After that all the people answered unanimously: All that Jehovah has spoken, we are willing to do. - Ex 19:7, 8

The Law Covenant focuses particularly on what the Hebrews must do, because they 'unanimously' agreed to do so, in order to be Jehovah's people and stay His people. A deviation from that covenant would mean that Jehovah wouldn't keep them as His people.

So when I hear someone say, "I follow the Law" I think of the Law Convenient. Because if that is not what they are following in the Torah or Pentateuch, then what are they following?

[otseng]

Here's what is typically thought by evangelical Christians of keeping the law - obeying burdensome, outdated (perhaps even cursed) regulations. It's some impossible task so might as well give up since Christ came to abolish the law. While we're at it, the Old Testament is not really relevant so let's just for the most part ignore it.

But, don't Christians believe that all scripture is God-breathed and inspired? If anything, 2 Tim 3:16 is referring to the Old Testament. Most of us as Christians have a skewed perception of the Old Testament. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. I would even submit, if we really want to know YHVH, we need to study the Old Testament, and in particular the Torah.

The way we should view keeping the law is to shamar the Torah. It does include obeying the laws, but it's much more than that. It is cherishing God's guidance, protecting the Lord's words, treasuring YHVH's instructions, celebrating the Almighty's doctrines.

[Psa 19:7-10 KJV] 7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Should Christians keep the law? Yes! Are we obligated to obey the laws for salvation? No. Does the Torah have principles that guide us to have a blessed life? Yes. Can we love the Torah, including the entirety of the Old Testament? Yes, we should.

[2timothy316]

Here's what is typically thought by evangelical Christians of keeping the law - obeying burdensome, outdated (perhaps even cursed) regulations. It's some impossible task so might as well give up since Christ came to abolish the law. While we're at it, the Old Testament is not really relevant so let's just for the most part ignore it.

And due to the fact they cast aside the Hebrew Scriptures, how are Evangelicals viewed these days in the consciences of many people? True Jesus Christ did come to fulfill the law but what was being fulfilled? Do they even know the reason for all the rules and regs of the Law Code? The Ten commandments, they understand that because it makes sense. Yet, how often do we hear of a person claiming to be an Evangelical tossing even a few Ten Commandments aside? When Jesus said that the Law Code is summed up by, 'you must love your God with your whole heart, mind and soul and you must love your neighbor as yourself' he explained the Law Code in simple terms. For example, sending the sick out of the midst of the camp wasn't to shame the person that was sick as people were later treated. It was a loving provision for your neighbor to that the sickness wouldn't spread to them. Once we add the reason for the Law to the Law we can see how corrupt the Jews became in 'straining the gnat but swallow the camel.' Making small things burdensome meanwhile neglecting the bigger things like justice and mercy.

But, don't Christians believe that all scripture is God-breathed and inspired?

They should but many don't.

If anything, 2 Tim 3:16 is referring to the Old Testament.

It's referring to all scripture. By the time Paul wrote his 2nd letter to Timothy many of His and other apostles writings were considered 'scripture' by the 1st century Christians. Which scripture means 'sacred writing'. But yes, the writings of Moses, Joshua, etc etc. are no less sacred.

Most of us as Christians have a skewed perception of the Old Testament. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. I would even submit, if we really want to know YHVH, we need to study the Old Testament, and in particular the Torah.

I completely Agree. I love reading the Hebrew Scriptures. How Jehovah dealt with the Hebrews gives a window into our Almighty God's mind.

The way we should view keeping the law is to shamar the Torah. It does include obeying the laws, but it's much more than that. It is cherishing God's guidance, protecting the Lord's words, treasuring YHVH's instructions, celebrating the Almighty's doctrines.

While I agree with much of this, however should we be following the laws from the Law Code that are shadows that pointed toward the Christ being born? For example, should a women after giving birth go all the way to a high priest in Jerusalem to purify herself though an animal sacrifice? A burnt offering at that. Which means none of the animal was kept to eat. It was all devoted to God just as Jesus gave his whole body to God. (Lev 12:6-8, Heb 10:8-10) And that is just one type of sacrifice that had to be done. Should we really be offering all of these animal sacrifices?

[Psa 19:7-10 KJV] 7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

I certainly never argue with scripture. The Law Code is still does all of these things and yet with the Christian Greek Scriptures we have more understanding of it.

Should Christians keep the law? Yes! Are we obligated to obey the laws for salvation? No. Does the Torah have principles that guide us to have a blessed life? Yes. Can we love the Torah, including the entirety of the Old Testament? Yes, we should.

Again, refer back to the animal sacrifice question. Is everything in the Law Code relevant for the whole world to try and keep?

[Donray]

Could someone tell me where in the bible where God or Jesus says to not keep the laws????

[2timothy316]

Could someone tell me where in the bible where God or Jesus says to not keep the laws????

"Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake." Col 2:13, 14

"That is why [Jesus] is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance." - Hebrews 9:15

Unless you don't believe Paul was writing down what Jehovah told him to write.

[Donray]

Could someone tell me where in the bible where God or Jesus says to not keep the laws????

"Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake." Col 2:13, 14

"That is why [Jesus] is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance." - Hebrews 9:15

Unless you don't believe Paul was writing down what Jehovah told him to write.

I guess you think that Paul is God??? Paul is not God. I want you to tell me where GOD or Jesus said that the laws are no longer valid. Is Paul speaking for God? Where did Paul get this info? The internet? Remember that Paul wrote before the Gospels were written. So, did Paul said the God told him?

Jesus was avid Jew and followed the Laws. There is nothing in the New testament that quotes GOD about not following the laws any further.

I know Paul need to say it so that he could get a lot of converts that were not Jews.

So again:

Where in the Bible does God or Jesus say not to follow the laws????

[Tcg]

Where in the Bible does God or Jesus ay not to follow the laws????

Jesus did say this:

• Mark 7:18 And he said to them, Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled? (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, What comes out of a person is what defiles him.

Although this seems to be more of a reinterpretation of the law rather than a recommendation to not follow it.


Tcg

[otseng]

Should we really be offering all of these animal sacrifices?

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifices, so we don't need to follow the sacrificial system.

[Eph 5:2 KJV] 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

[Heb 9:26 KJV] 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

[Heb 10:12 KJV] 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

But, though we don't need to follow it, we can learn a great deal from understanding the sacrificial system of the Torah.

Thinking about it, believing that Jesus is the fulfillment of the sacrificial system is one of the main differences between Christianity and Judaism.

Belief in the messiahship of Jesus, his power to save, and his divinity are considered by Jewish authorities to be the defining distinctions between Christianity and Judaism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

Comparing Messianic Judaism and Christianity, there are very little differences:

God: that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal, outside creation, infinitely significant and benevolent; viewpoints vary on the Trinity

Jesus: that he is the Jewish Messiah; views on his divinity vary

written Torah: Messianic Jews believe, with a few exceptions, that Jesus taught and reaffirmed the Torah and that it remains fully in force

Israel: the Children of Israel are central to God's plan; replacement theology is opposed

the Bible: the Tanakh and the New Testament are usually considered the divinely inspired Scripture, though Messianic Judaism is more open to criticism of the New Testament canon than is Christianity

eschatology: similar to many Protestant views

oral law: observance varies, but most deem these traditions subservient to the written Torah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism