All the Chrildren of the World

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
SallyF
Guru
Posts: 1459
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:32 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

All the Chrildren of the World

Post #1

Post by SallyF »

Image

Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world.

I dutifully sang this during my weekly brainwashing sessions at Sunday school. (But not always with the image of an execution device in the background.)

But in later years, I discovered that Jesus' propagandists did not actually have him say that he loved all the children of the world.

Did the Gospel propagandists just forget to mention that Jesus loves all the children of the world …?

Were Jesus and his propagandists more interested in their quest for political power than they were about foreign kiddies …?

Have later Christians had to embellish and inflate the propaganda to make the Jesus character into what they WANT him to have been …?
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

User avatar
SallyF
Guru
Posts: 1459
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:32 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #2

Post by SallyF »

Image

No such scene exists in the "scriptures".

For me, it's Christians imagining the Jesus they want.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21276
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 808 times
Been thanked: 1142 times
Contact:

Re: All the Chrildren of the World

Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

QUESTION DID JESUS LOVE "FOREIGN"* CHILDREN?

* not natural born Israelites

There is no specific scripture in the gospels where Jesus is reported to have said he loved children. Further since he stated his commission was only to his fellow Israelites, he had little contact with foreigners including foreign children. At the time social roles were were clearly defined and a single man would have had few occassions to interact with someone elses children. That said the Jesus of the bible showed his affection for all kinds of people young and old, often breaking with convention to do so. Jesus' ministry was marked by his demonstrating how he wished his disciples to behave over merely issuing commands or making statements and at a time when it was considered inappropriate for a respected teacher to interact with children, women and especially foreigners, Jesus did all three.

CHILDREN Most famous was the occasion when Jesus blessed the children and babies their mothers brought to him. We note that, true to convention, his disciples sought to stop the children gaining an audience to Jesus , the bible account says Jesus was "indignant" at that initiative, saying
MARK 10: 14-16
“Let the young children come to me; do not try to stop them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such ones. .. And he took the children into his arms and began blessing them, laying his hands on them."
  • Image
Jesus evidently did not believe children were unworthy of his time and attention, indeed by using children so often in his illustrations Jesus gave evidence he not only keenly observed them, but appreciated their positive qualities. Jesus was known for his kind patience and loving regard, especially to the humble and disadvantaged, there is absolutely no reason to believe that that regard did not extend to children and enough in scripture to conclude it did. One of the three resurrections Jesus performed was of a 12 year old girl.


FOREIGNERS

As has been mentioned Jesus stated his mission was uniquely for his fellow Israelites, but this did not mean he was insensitive to the needs of non-Israelites. On one occassion a phenoesian woman pleaded with him to cure her child. He explained the limits of his commission*, but finally changed his mind faced with her extraordinary faith and persistence. So on the one concession we see Jesus have indirect dealings with a foreign child, he saw fit to perform a miracle. Clearly his affection for mankind extended to non-israelite children.

*Jesus kindly referred to her child as a "puppy" (a loved pet) softening a derogatory saying common to the Jews who spoke of foreigners as "dogs".

CONCLUSION Jesus' words and actions indicate he did indeed love children. The binle presents Jesus as being on a mission that would eventually benefit al mankind, including children of all nationalities, skin colours and language groups. He explained that the ultimate expression of love is to be willing to die for them and that he (Jesus) was to give his life I exchange for many including the world's children.


RELATED POSTS

INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
SallyF
Guru
Posts: 1459
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:32 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: All the Chrildren of the World

Post #4

Post by SallyF »

JehovahsWitness wrote: QUESTION DID JESUS LOVE "FOREIGN"* CHILDREN?

* not natural born Israelites

There is no specific scripture in the gospels where Jesus is reported to have said he loved children.

One of the questions was actually …

Were Jesus and his propagandists more interested in their quest for political power than they were about foreign kiddies …?

Nonetheless, we seem to be agreed that Christians can and do emend and amend the propaganda to give themselves the Jesus they WANT …

Rather than the Jesus the propagandists have given them.

Christians will create (commandment-breaking) fabricated images of the Jesus they WANT …

And omit the bits of the Jesus they DON'T want …

Image
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: All the Chrildren of the World

Post #5

Post by Elijah John »

SallyF wrote:
Were Jesus and his propagandists more interested in their quest for political power than they were about foreign kiddies …?
How is that question not posing a false dichotomy?

And it has not been established that Jesus or his immediate disciples were interested in political power. You are assuming something that has not been demonstrated, at least not on this thread. Jesus himself said his Kingdom is "not of this world", and "render unto Caesar".. Jesus and his disciples preached spiritual and religous salvation, not political power or political designs.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

User avatar
SallyF
Guru
Posts: 1459
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:32 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: All the Chrildren of the World

Post #6

Post by SallyF »

Elijah John wrote:
SallyF wrote:
Were Jesus and his propagandists more interested in their quest for political power than they were about foreign kiddies …?
How is that question not posing a false dichotomy?

And it has not been established that Jesus or his immediate disciples were interested in political power. You are assuming something that has not been demonstrated, at least not on this thread. Jesus himself said his Kingdom is "not of this world", and "render unto Caesar".. Jesus and his disciples preached spiritual and religous salvation, not political power or political designs.

When the Jesus character was written of as twice parading himself through Jerusalem …

No one was calling out for spiritual and religious salvation - they were hailing (the ultimately FAILED) "King of Israel".

The Jesus character is not written of in the "Gospels" as directly and clearly preaching spiritual and religious salvation.

But …

We DO very clearly have the fantasy character (I suggest) of the archangel Gabriel announcing to the BVM that the fantasy tale will have her bear the "King of Israel" - not a religious and spiritual "saviour".

Given the complete and utter absence of evidence for "God" in any of this …

We may offer that the "King of Israel" business was the political ambition for the people of the day …

And the religious and spiritual "salvation" was an afterthought to cover for the political failure.

Simple.

Now, about the propagandists not mentioning that the Divine Leader loved the children of the world …

And Christians inventing the Jesus they WANT …?

Image
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

Tart
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1663
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:55 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #7

Post by Tart »

idk... personally i dont like most kids... And since Jesus lives it me, thats the way it is...
I reserve the right to be wrong about every statement I make, including this one.

I also reserve the right to misinterpret words, though not my intention.

If you believe I have done or said something "wrong", I would encourage you to really evaluate what is "wrong", and what is "right", no matter what it may be. Is there any objective value that can be given to such claims?

Tart
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1663
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:55 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #8

Post by Tart »

I cant say that, sometime kids are great, little buggers... You can joke around with them...

Yet sometimes the little turds are showing me up... "im so joyful and perfect". At which point i have to leave and pretend they dont exist


and since Jesus lives inside of me (no homo-), he feels the same way..
Last edited by Tart on Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I reserve the right to be wrong about every statement I make, including this one.

I also reserve the right to misinterpret words, though not my intention.

If you believe I have done or said something "wrong", I would encourage you to really evaluate what is "wrong", and what is "right", no matter what it may be. Is there any objective value that can be given to such claims?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21276
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 808 times
Been thanked: 1142 times
Contact:

Re: All the Chrildren of the World

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

WAS JESUS RIDE INTO JERUSALEM A MOVE FOR POLITICAL POWER?
  • There is no doubt Jesus triumphant ride into Jerualsm a week before his death had the intention of reflecting the ancient Hebrew custom for a new King. There is little doubt as well that many that witnessed the event (including some if not all of his own Apostles) expected Jesus to become a liberating leader, possibly leading them to throw off the much hated yoke of Rome. Whether this was Jesus intention however can be assessed by two things, his words and his actions.
DID JESUS ADVOCATE THE SEIZING OF POLITICAL POWER
  • What Jesus taught: One present day criticism of Jesus is the near total absence of his criticism of the political order of his day. Indeed, he didn't speak out against the Roman authorities regardless of how oppressive they proved to be, nor did he propose an alternative. He taught about a future kingdom of heaven and urged submission to the ruling authorities on promise of heavenly blessings.

    What Jesus did: the second witness we can turn to to assess if Jesus advocated political involvement or sought power through political office is what he did. Jesus was most certainly hugely popular, especially amongst his fellow northerners. Indeed on at least one recorded occasion, the people gathered with the intention of making him king. How did Jesus react? Did he use his popularity to build a fighting force, mount a rebellion or seek to negotiate with the authorities at the time? No. The account said he withdrew to the mountains. He "ran away"! Unwilling to be forced into the political arena. Hardly the action of a man with "political ambition".

    - Jesus could have sought to ingratiate himself with Herod who, regretting and fearing his ill advised execution of John the Baptist, wished to meet him but Jesus made no move to gain entrance to the upper echelon of society by networking with the rich and powerful.

    - When opponents tried to force him into taking a position, he stayed neutral, pointing out that Cesar indeed had the right to demand what belonged to him (Cesar) including obedience from his citizens and the paying of the dreaded taxes as long as this did not interfere with godly devotion. So far from hearing a dialogue aimed at gaining political power, what Jesus taught and said indicated complete political neutrality.

    Under examinaton: Before Pilate (who undoubtedly had his spies and informants and was aware this teacher from Nazareth was not on any of his lists of known agitators), asked Jesus outright if he was a king, Jesus didnt deny it but clarified his kingdom was "not of this world". He posed no threat to the ruling powers at the time and was not seeking to usurp Roman authority. Jesus stood befor Pilates accused of sedition, a serious crime and not one Pilate would risk letting slip before a increasingly suspicious Tiberius, who would have had Pilates head on the mere whisper of mismanaging such accusations. Pilate found Jesus innocent. Three times.
CONCLUSION While Jesus intentions may well have been misunderstood by some, this was more about their projecting their own political desires on him than anything he said or did. His ride into Jerusalem had a spiritual not political signicance. He revealed himself to be the Messiah, the promised heir of David to his disciples but repeated again and again that that kingdom was from a heavenly not a human (political) source. Jesus urged his disciples to be "no part of this world" forewarning them his current mission would not lead to the glory and prominence they desired. Those that claim Jesus was or sought to be a political leader, do so while ignoring what is reported about both his actions and his explicit statements. Could it be that such critiques of Jesus do so to give themselves the "strawman Jesus" they WANT rather than the one actually recorded in scripture?



JW



RELATED POSTS
Should Christians engage in politics?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 643#952643

What is Gods Kingdom? [FAQ]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 867#956867


Do the Divine wars in the bible authorize Christians to participate in human conflicts?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 364#827364
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
SallyF
Guru
Posts: 1459
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:32 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: All the Chrildren of the World

Post #10

Post by SallyF »

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]


The supposed words and actions of the possibly fictional Jesus character are ONLY found in the writings of his human propagandists.

I consider it wise to carefully scrutinise the writings of propagandists.

But the propagandists don't have the Jesus character declare that he loves "all the children of the world".

This is a CLEAR example of Christians fabricating the Jesus they want.

I am of the opinion that Christianity has been a fraud perpetrated by the original propagandists.

I am of the opinion that certain Christians willfully perpetuate the fraudulence.

The slightest HINT of evidence for "God" in any of this would silence such criticism immediately.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

Post Reply