"Heaven and earth":

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this exchange:

onewithhim asked:

[What are your thoughts about "heaven and earth"?]

Checkpoint answered:

[Well, I have certainly given it more thoughts since arriving at this debating site.

One will pass away, and another will appear, is at least a start that we can agree on in any discussion.

Beyond that, there are many thoughts, many opinions, many interpretations of what relevant scripture means and how to approach it.

My thoughts, my opinions, my way of approach, are at most still tentative.

But I welcome discussion of any aspect and any verses.

But not on this thread. but on a new one I am about to start.

We can share there our thoughts on "heaven and earth"? (i.e. not heaven only and not earth only)]

So, join this discussion and debate!

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.

Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo

So, if what you are saying is truth, what are y0u s8ggest9ng we do, and/or we don't do?

In a room full of counterfeit dollar bills how can a person find the one legit bill? Examine a what makes a bill legit. If the bill is missing one of the things that makes a bill real, then burn it.

The same goes for the topic of this thread. All the thoughts and opinions of Heaven and Earth. Some are counterfeit and some are real. First we have to determine who makes is the criteria for what is acceptable as true. Like the US government makes the rules as to what makes a dollar bill legit. Who has set the criteria for what is acceptable as to what will actually happen to Heaven and Earth? Or even what Heaven and Earth is? Wouldn't it be the one that Created them?

So start there. Just like the money we are trying to examine, who makes the bills? In this case, who was Heaven and Earth created by?

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.

Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo

So, if what you are saying is truth, what are y0u s8ggest9ng we do, and/or we don't do?

What can we do?
Just like your/our life the best way you/we see fit based on what you've/we've personally found to be true.
Not on what others say is true or not.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 15 by onewithhim]

That's why we have the instruction book---the Bible.

There are many of these instructional books around (which is kinda' the whole point). But if the bible is what you want live by, great!
People just shouldn't expect everyone else to abide by the same book (the bible which, as I'm sure you know, isn't full of facts, but methods).

If someone does their homework, like timothy suggested, they can uncover the truth of it all.

It's all too personal and ambiguous to make that claim logically and honestly. But again, if that works for you....

Too many are too inert to do any intensive searching.

That's what, in my experience, brainwashed people say.
"Yes yes, my book as all the answers and all you have to do is look and you will find it"! Tell that to the people, scholarly and otherwise, you have spent their lives looking and not found a whole of of anything.
Too many have their heads in the bible and ignore everything else, and they prefer it that way.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 17 by 2timothy316]

People never find truth because they stop looking.

That claim needs evidence. I'm sure you can supply evidence on how everyone who has said 'I didn't find the truth." simply stopped looking.
We all await your evidence.
Unless that's your opinion, which needs no evidence. And that's fine. Just make sure it comes across as opinion and not definite fact.

Surely, some people got tired of looking and never finding fact (or finding contradictory 'facts').
But one would think God, if indeed has an interest in making sure everyone has found him to be factual and correct, would provide such things to those seeking him. And yet, there are thousands (maybe even millions) who have sought and never found anything.
It's said seek and you will find. But there are people who have spent their entire lives seeking and found nothing of any worth.
I guess they didn't look hard enough. Or they weren't worthy enough. Or they didn't have enough faith. Or whatever other excuse that's out there.
That's what we say when we have no good answer as to why - put the blame on the seekers and not the one that is said wants to be found.
It's always the peoples' fault - never God's fault.
A being that could do anything at any time to anything for any reason - can create all that was/is/ever will be (even the things we don't know about) can't build his own church, pay his own bills, convince his own children.
What a pathetic excuse for a deity.
But yeah, it's the peoples' fault for not doing their due diligence in seeking him. It's the imperfect peoples' fault for not being able to find the all being deity.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Someone has spoken the truth in all the muck that is out there. Someone or many have the truth right now. All that remains is for time to pass to see who is right, who has done their homework and made a fully educated decision. Who was wise in what they chose as fact and what they tossed as trash.

Who then, in this scenario, is that someone, and who have the truth right now?

Jehovah God and His Son Jesus Christ. Find them and you'll have your truth.

The "someone" is actually two someones, then?

"Find them"? What does that involve?

I thought the idea was to seek "the truth", not "your truth".

You earlier said, "many have the truth right now". Who are these many? How do they identify themselves as those who do have the truth?

[JehovahsWitness]

You earlier said, "many have the truth right now". Who are these many? How do they identify themselves as those who do have the truth?

When Jehovahs Witnesses refer to "the truth" we are usually referring to the body of revealed truths as found in the bible. It is scripture we believe to be the means by which God has revealed truth to mankind.

JOHN 17:17
Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth - JESUS

The bible contains truthful accurate information on questions such as

• Who is the TRUE God? What is His name?
• Is Jesus Almighty God?
• What happens when we die?
• Why has God permitted suffering?
• Will this earth be destroyed?
• Does God have an organization?
• What is Gods Kingdom?
• How can I worship God acceptably
  
  ... and much more.

The Jehovahs Witnesses believe the True God is presently gathering all people that want an accurate understanding of these bible truths into one united organization through a worldwide preaching campaign. And it for this reason they colloquially speak about being "in the truth".

3 JOHN 4 ESV
I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.

I know it is against forum rules to suggest that you know "the Truth" and others do no (I am not sure if it is against forum rules to refer to "forum rules" if one is not a moderator) but regardless I am not going to say, or even suggest that I believe Jehovahs Witnesses have "The truth" in the sense explained above.



JEHOVAHS WITNESS

For more go to other posts related to...

GOD, TRUTH and ...RELIGION

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 11 by 2timothy316]

Opinions do not lead to truth and how many people agree doesn't make something true.

Yes, which is why we will never find the truth on things religious. Too many opinions about what the truth is to the point the truth, while existing, gets lost in all the mumbo jumbo

So, if what you are saying is truth, what are y0u s8ggest9ng we do, and/or we don't do?

What can we do?
Just like your/our life the best way you/we see fit based on what you've/we've personally found to be true.
Not on what others say is true or not.

Personal experiences do greatly influence us as to who we are and who we become. So too do our responses to them.

But they may or nay not be a guide to what is true. True for us, yes, but some of them may well have led us to be very far from what really is true, and from what is truth.

We are all on a life journey that has to end one day. We do not know when that will be, but in the meantime we can learn more about what life truly is and what it could become in our experience.

Have a safe and fruitful journey!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 15 by onewithhim]

That's why we have the instruction book---the Bible.

There are many of these instructional books around (which is kinda' the whole point). But if the bible is what you want live by, great!
People just shouldn't expect everyone else to abide by the same book (the bible which, as I'm sure you know, isn't full of facts, but methods).

If someone does their homework, like timothy suggested, they can uncover the truth of it all.

It's all too personal and ambiguous to make that claim logically and honestly. But again, if that works for you....

Too many are too inert to do any intensive searching.

That's what, in my experience, brainwashed people say.
"Yes yes, my book as all the answers and all you have to do is look and you will find it"! Tell that to the people, scholarly and otherwise, you have spent their lives looking and not found a whole of of anything.
Too many have their heads in the bible and ignore everything else, and they prefer it that way.

What you describe does not apply to my experience at all. I find JWs to be the LEAST brainwashed people on Earth, and I have checked out many religions.

JWs go out to where people are---in their homes and on the streets---and we know what people think and believe. They tell us. We see wide-spread ignorance of the Bible and wholesale dumb obedience to the dictates of religious leaders, without doing research themselves. People have been going toward the edge of the precipice just like the lemmings in an apt illustration, because they are comfy in their ignorance and don't care to rock any boats.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 25 by JehovahsWitness]


Checkpoint wrote:

ou earlier said, "many have the truth right now". Who are these many? How do they identify themselves as those who do have the truth?

When Jehovahs Witnesses refer to "the truth" we are usually referring to the body of revealed truths as found in the bible. It is scripture we believe to be the means by which God has revealed truth to mankind.

The Jehovahs Witnesses believe the True God is presently gathering all people that want an accurate understanding of these bible truths into one united organization through a worldwide preaching campaign. And it for this reason they colloquially speak about being "in the truth".

That is your answer - one answer - to my question.

You don't miss a trick, do you, UW!

Please, anyone, consider what those verses below portray and teach, in context with each other:

John 7:
40 When they heard these words, some of the people said, “This really is the Prophet.� 41 Others said, “This is the Christ.�

But some others said, “Is the Christ to come from Galilee?
42 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from
the offspring of David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?�
43 So there was a division among the people.

52 “Aren’t you also from Galilee?� they replied. “Search, and you will see, that no prophet comes out of Galilee.�

John 5:
38 and you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom He has sent.

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 1:

45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.�

46 “Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?� Nathanael asked.

“Come and see,� said Philip.

47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.�

48 “How do you know me?� Nathanael asked.

Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.�

49Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.�

John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 17 by 2timothy316]

People never find truth because they stop looking.

That claim needs evidence. I'm sure you can supply evidence on how everyone who has said 'I didn't find the truth." simply stopped looking.
We all await your evidence.
Unless that's your opinion, which needs no evidence. And that's fine. Just make sure it comes across as opinion and not definite fact.

Surely, some people got tired of looking and never finding fact (or finding contradictory 'facts').
But one would think God, if indeed has an interest in making sure everyone has found him to be factual and correct, would provide such things to those seeking him. And yet, there are thousands (maybe even millions) who have sought and never found anything.
It's said seek and you will find. But there are people who have spent their entire lives seeking and found nothing of any worth.
I guess they didn't look hard enough. Or they weren't worthy enough. Or they didn't have enough faith. Or whatever other excuse that's out there.
That's what we say when we have no good answer as to why - put the blame on the seekers and not the one that is said wants to be found.
It's always the peoples' fault - never God's fault.
A being that could do anything at any time to anything for any reason - can create all that was/is/ever will be (even the things we don't know about) can't build his own church, pay his own bills, convince his own children.
What a pathetic excuse for a deity.
But yeah, it's the peoples' fault for not doing their due diligence in seeking him. It's the imperfect peoples' fault for not being able to find the all being deity.

I understand this completely. If you search enough, you will find a lot of scripture is suspect. I was hoping, greatly to find some new revelation I could show mankind. I failed. But, I gain a new perspective over scripture. Its not meant for doctrine. Some of it for sure might qualify. Its a guide to look and explore and see. For better or worse. God is not in a book. He's not on a plane. Nor in a box or on a train.

Our fault is what we do. God has no influence or blame there(by his choice). There is God and its not us. Don't be surprised that everything you believe gets challenged. God is not a Hebrew or Methodist or Baptist. Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. He is what He will be. He is consistent. Whatever doctrine you choose, He wants you to do good , be good.

God is not religious.