Ends and means

[bernee51]

From the accounts in the gospels, the torture and execution of the man known as Jesus of Nazareth was a hoorendous and barbaric act carried out for reasons contrived by the power structures at the time.

Without this act, however, the salvation claimed by christians would not have occured.

By these brutal acts those who believe benefit through 'eternal life'.

Was this act evil?

Is it a case of the means being justified by the ends?

[whirlwind]

.

<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

That is true Z. Profoundly true. There is nothing left.

So, take the preaching and bible quotes away, and there is no reason to believe any of it? (I have read your quote over and over, and this is the message that I get).

And you're trying to spin that as though that is a good thing? I'm boggled.

How can you even be a Christian if you think/know this? That's like saying: I'm going to tell a story about "X". The only proof of "X" is my story itself. If you take my story away, there is no reason to believe "X", but I am going to believe it anyway. Does that not seem shallow to you?

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

[whirlwind]

i have been debating this as well, using both scripture and common knowledge. not very easy i will say but i might have a couple cents to throw in. Firstly i want to say that before any scripture or even us for that matter satan was the basicly best friend forever of god and the rest of the angels. when we came along that was severed, wether it was satan's act or our act we were both involved and for the most part god is trying to stay out of it and let us figure this out, and not leave us hopeless. when we showed up as beings it was catalogued as creating a devide, are we able even as an individual to fill that gap? or will it take every single one of us to patch up what was wronged.

None of what you just said is even remotely true. Stop making up lies. We all know that god and Satan were not best friends, but were in fact distant pen pells. What really broke up their relationship was the fact Satan liked dinosaurs so much, and was not writing god often enough. So god decided to destroy the earth and all the dinosaurs. That really pissed Satan off, so Satan called god a doo doo head, and from there the relationship went south.

My statement is true because I backed it up with just as much evidence as you put into your post.

Making up stories is fun!

Sammy is correct. Satan was loved by God. But then Satan thought he would be a god, higher than God and he rebelled. In doing so he took many souls with him, just as they are now with him. History repeats itself. God ended that first age, the age of the dinosaurs and has given us another chance in this present age to make our decision. Will we stand with God or follow Satan?

[Clownboat]

.

<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

That is true Z. Profoundly true. There is nothing left.

So, take the preaching and bible quotes away, and there is no reason to believe any of it? (I have read your quote over and over, and this is the message that I get).

And you're trying to spin that as though that is a good thing? I'm boggled.

How can you even be a Christian if you think/know this? That's like saying: I'm going to tell a story about "X". The only proof of "X" is my story itself. If you take my story away, there is no reason to believe "X", but I am going to believe it anyway. Does that not seem shallow to you?

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

Many would argue that the Bible/God takes away meaning in our life, not provides meaning.

The statement "life has no meaning without God" means nothing to those that find meaning in their lives without beliveing in God. I find it impossible for your statement to be true.

[whirlwind]

.

<snip preaching and quotes from unverified source>

When the preaching and bible quotes are removed, there is nothing left.

That is true Z. Profoundly true. There is nothing left.

So, take the preaching and bible quotes away, and there is no reason to believe any of it? (I have read your quote over and over, and this is the message that I get).

And you're trying to spin that as though that is a good thing? I'm boggled.

How can you even be a Christian if you think/know this? That's like saying: I'm going to tell a story about "X". The only proof of "X" is my story itself. If you take my story away, there is no reason to believe "X", but I am going to believe it anyway. Does that not seem shallow to you?

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

Many would argue that the Bible/God takes away meaning in our life, not provides meaning.

The statement "life has no meaning without God" means nothing to those that find meaning in their lives without beliveing in God. I find it impossible for your statement to be true.

Yes...many would argue that and....many would be wrong. But, that's the choice we are to make in this lifetime.

[Clownboat]

i have been debating this as well, using both scripture and common knowledge. not very easy i will say but i might have a couple cents to throw in. Firstly i want to say that before any scripture or even us for that matter satan was the basicly best friend forever of god and the rest of the angels. when we came along that was severed, wether it was satan's act or our act we were both involved and for the most part god is trying to stay out of it and let us figure this out, and not leave us hopeless. when we showed up as beings it was catalogued as creating a devide, are we able even as an individual to fill that gap? or will it take every single one of us to patch up what was wronged.

None of what you just said is even remotely true. Stop making up lies. We all know that god and Satan were not best friends, but were in fact distant pen pells. What really broke up their relationship was the fact Satan liked dinosaurs so much, and was not writing god often enough. So god decided to destroy the earth and all the dinosaurs. That really pissed Satan off, so Satan called god a doo doo head, and from there the relationship went south.

My statement is true because I backed it up with just as much evidence as you put into your post.

Making up stories is fun!

Sammy is correct. Satan was loved by God. But then Satan thought he would be a god, higher than God and he rebelled. In doing so he took many souls with him, just as they are now with him. History repeats itself. God ended that first age, the age of the dinosaurs and has given us another chance in this present age to make our decision. Will we stand with God or follow Satan?

I know the story well. I was indoctrinated as a Bible believing, tongue talking, evangelizing, spirit filled, drunk in the Holy Ghost follower of God for my entire childhood. I even went to private school with a daily Bible class from k - 12 and a church service once a week. That does not count church on Wednesdays and twice on Sundays for my entire childhood.

I will be fooled no longer, but instead will examine everything carefully and hold onto that which is good. You sound just like one of my Bible teachers that once told us that the Bible is true because with all the different books and translations out there, there is not a single contradiction. I have grown up now and have examined that statement, I do not hold onto it as something that is good. There are way to many contradictions in the Bible to hold onto that belief anymore.

I would love for the god of the Bible to be true, and I am still open to belief, but I cannot believe it just because people like you make claims of truth. There are too many false prophets and people that make similar claims as you do for monetary gain or some selfish reason. That only works on people that already hold the same belief as you are making the claim for.

I also use to think that dinosaurs were destroyed the first time that God destroyed the earth. (By fire, not the flood). That cannot be true though, since sin and suffering did not exist on the earth until Adam ate from the tree. Unless you want me to believe that T-Rex was a vegetarian or we do not take the Bible literally.

[Zzyzx]

.

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

Notice that you are addressing many here who have no "gods" or "things of god" in their life -- and you are attempting to say that their (our) life is without meaning.

That is a presumptuous and very foolish position -- because we KNOW better. Your life "with god" is no more meaningful than ours without -- only you think it is.

Perhaps YOUR life would be "meaningless without god", but that is not true for others. Many Ex-Christians who once fervently believed as you apparently do, that "life is meaningless without god", have discovered quite the opposite once they got away from the influence of preachers and prophets (and ancient storytellers).

For an example, one can look up posts by OnceConvinced http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/p ... ile&u=3078

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 18:

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

What of the vanity of those who propose a god's existence but are unable to show they speak truth?

Seems whirlwind finds much comfort in such beliefs, but I for one will not accept another declaring my life "without God" to have no meaning or value.

My life is full of meaning and value, if only to myself, and I'll be danged if I'll have another disparage it.

This is the type of statement theists often make that infuriates me - where one can find no value in their own life without believing some invisible man in the sky gives two hoots about our existence. It is among the most ridiculous, unsupported, and downright goofy claims I've ever known.

I have no evidence whatever there's a god, yet still find much joy, happiness, and yes, meaning and value in watching my offspring grow, watching my garden grow, or just sitting down to get drunk and stoned with friends.

This "no meaning or value" angle is nothing more than an ad hom attack, it should be disallowed in civil debate, and it should stop being claimed that an invisible, undetectable, unproven, unprovable god offers theists more "meaning and value" than what is available to those who reject fanciful, sense-assaulting tales.

Let's see if our theist friends can learn this lesson.

[whirlwind]

From Post 18:

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

What of the vanity of those who propose a god's existence but are unable to show they speak truth?

Seems whirlwind finds much comfort in such beliefs, but I for one will not accept another declaring my life "without God" to have no meaning or value.

My life is full of meaning and value, if only to myself, and I'll be danged if I'll have another disparage it.


This is the type of statement theists often make that infuriates me - where one can find no value in their own life without believing some invisible man in the sky gives two hoots about our existence. It is among the most ridiculous, unsupported, and downright goofy claims I've ever known.

I have no evidence whatever there's a god, yet still find much joy, happiness, and yes, meaning and value in watching my offspring grow, watching my garden grow, or just sitting down to get drunk and stoned with friends.

This "no meaning or value" angle is nothing more than an ad hom attack, it should be disallowed in civil debate, and it should stop being claimed that an invisible, undetectable, unproven, unprovable god offers theists more "meaning and value" than what is available to those who reject fanciful, sense-assaulting tales.

Let's see if our theist friends can learn this lesson.

Joey, it isn't your present life I'm speaking of. [Eccl.3:19-20]

[whirlwind]

i have been debating this as well, using both scripture and common knowledge. not very easy i will say but i might have a couple cents to throw in. Firstly i want to say that before any scripture or even us for that matter satan was the basicly best friend forever of god and the rest of the angels. when we came along that was severed, wether it was satan's act or our act we were both involved and for the most part god is trying to stay out of it and let us figure this out, and not leave us hopeless. when we showed up as beings it was catalogued as creating a devide, are we able even as an individual to fill that gap? or will it take every single one of us to patch up what was wronged.

None of what you just said is even remotely true. Stop making up lies. We all know that god and Satan were not best friends, but were in fact distant pen pells. What really broke up their relationship was the fact Satan liked dinosaurs so much, and was not writing god often enough. So god decided to destroy the earth and all the dinosaurs. That really pissed Satan off, so Satan called god a doo doo head, and from there the relationship went south.

My statement is true because I backed it up with just as much evidence as you put into your post.

Making up stories is fun!

Sammy is correct. Satan was loved by God. But then Satan thought he would be a god, higher than God and he rebelled. In doing so he took many souls with him, just as they are now with him. History repeats itself. God ended that first age, the age of the dinosaurs and has given us another chance in this present age to make our decision. Will we stand with God or follow Satan?

I know the story well. I was indoctrinated as a Bible believing, tongue talking, evangelizing, spirit filled, drunk in the Holy Ghost follower of God for my entire childhood. I even went to private school with a daily Bible class from k - 12 and a church service once a week. That does not count church on Wednesdays and twice on Sundays for my entire childhood.

I will be fooled no longer, but instead will examine everything carefully and hold onto that which is good. You sound just like one of my Bible teachers that once told us that the Bible is true because with all the different books and translations out there, there is not a single contradiction. I have grown up now and have examined that statement, I do not hold onto it as something that is good. There are way to many contradictions in the Bible to hold onto that belief anymore.

I would love for the god of the Bible to be true, and I am still open to belief, but I cannot believe it just because people like you make claims of truth. There are too many false prophets and people that make similar claims as you do for monetary gain or some selfish reason. That only works on people that already hold the same belief as you are making the claim for.

I also use to think that dinosaurs were destroyed the first time that God destroyed the earth. (By fire, not the flood). That cannot be true though, since sin and suffering did not exist on the earth until Adam ate from the tree. Unless you want me to believe that T-Rex was a vegetarian or we do not take the Bible literally.

The dinosaurs were destroyed in the first age but it was by flood...not fire. In Greek it was termed the "katallbo," the overturn. It was the overturn of the world at that time. Some believe the earth was tilted on it's axis then.

I don't understand the connection you are making with T-Rex and Adam with sin and suffering.

[Munchskreem]

From Post 18:

You misunderstand. When things of God are taken away then....there is nothing else. Nothing lasting, nothing real, nothing of value. Life has no meaning without God. It is all vanity.

What of the vanity of those who propose a god's existence but are unable to show they speak truth?

Seems whirlwind finds much comfort in such beliefs, but I for one will not accept another declaring my life "without God" to have no meaning or value.

My life is full of meaning and value, if only to myself, and I'll be danged if I'll have another disparage it.


This is the type of statement theists often make that infuriates me - where one can find no value in their own life without believing some invisible man in the sky gives two hoots about our existence. It is among the most ridiculous, unsupported, and downright goofy claims I've ever known.

I have no evidence whatever there's a god, yet still find much joy, happiness, and yes, meaning and value in watching my offspring grow, watching my garden grow, or just sitting down to get drunk and stoned with friends.

This "no meaning or value" angle is nothing more than an ad hom attack, it should be disallowed in civil debate, and it should stop being claimed that an invisible, undetectable, unproven, unprovable god offers theists more "meaning and value" than what is available to those who reject fanciful, sense-assaulting tales.

Let's see if our theist friends can learn this lesson.

Joey, it isn't your present life I'm speaking of. [Eccl.3:19-20]

From what I have been reading, it seems like you were and your current attempt is aimed at
1) Preaching
2) Saving some face

But that aside...

Value is a strange little concept, considering that it can be attributed to things with little to no proof. After all, if we are judging value to be whatever produces the best results, then the question becomes which results are desired. If one for any reason does not want to be a Christian in life, be in Heaven in death, or both, then we are hard-pressed to define Christianity as "valuable."