Paul Never Existed

[The Nice Centurion]

Additionally we got a good possibility that Paul never existed!

Yeah, sure.

Go with that.

Question for debate:

Is that true ?

What are the pro & contra ?

[1213]

Then, as I have said before, you have invented your own religion, or hereticasl sect of Christianity, anyway.

I don't see how can it be heretic to believe what Jesus said.

We are all sinners because of the fall. I fully agree that if Eden was a real event it ought not to apply to the descendants, but the doctrine of Christianity is that it does.

I think this depends on what sinful means. I have understood sin means to reject god, or to be without God. Adam and Eve rejected God and therefore were expelled to this first death. And because of that, we also are born in separation from God, and thus in sinful state. And I believe that is why god send Jesus, to restore the connection and show the way out from sinful state, back in connection with God.

To all, Christian and non Christians alike. Good and bad. I tend to agree with your reasoning that good deeds rather than beliefs should determine determine whether one os 'Righteous', but Paul was clear about this; Jesusfaith was suppose to release the believer from sin and they should never sin again. But his Corinthians did and he had to warn that good deeds were needed to avoid losing grace.

Nice, but I think that is still not accurate enough. Belief and actions are usually connected. And good works or faith are only results of mind. If person has a righteous mind, it produces righteous actions. The actions don't make person righteous, but they can show that person is righteous. I think Paul and Jesus tries to correct that common misunderstanding that the actions (faith is also an action) are what makes a person righteous. Unfortunately many have misunderstood that so that then nothing really matters.

It would be good, if people would understand that actions are only like a fruit of a tree and tell is the tree good or bad. If one is righteous, it will be visible in his actions. And therefore, to determine that one is righteous, he must have righteous actions. However, making righteous actions doesn't necessary mean person is righteous, because the actions can be done with wrong reasons. And i think this is why Jesus preached that people should be born anew and there should happen change so that person becomes righteous. And if person is righteous, he wants to do right, because he understands it is good, not because of fear, or hope for reward.

p.s. I'll risk it. I suspect he wiped fake blood over his ear, but we shall see.

What do you think, should media be blamed for the shooting, because it has flirted with the idea of assassination and calls Trump irrationally Hitler or worse?

[TRANSPONDER]

Then, as I have said before, you have invented your own religion, or hereticasl sect of Christianity, anyway.

I don't see how can it be heretic to believe what Jesus said.

We are all sinners because of the fall. I fully agree that if Eden was a real event it ought not to apply to the descendants, but the doctrine of Christianity is that it does.

I think this depends on what sinful means. I have understood sin means to reject god, or to be without God. Adam and Eve rejected God and therefore were expelled to this first death. And because of that, we also are born in separation from God, and thus in sinful state. And I believe that is why god send Jesus, to restore the connection and show the way out from sinful state, back in connection with God.

To all, Christian and non Christians alike. Good and bad. I tend to agree with your reasoning that good deeds rather than beliefs should determine determine whether one os 'Righteous', but Paul was clear about this; Jesusfaith was suppose to release the believer from sin and they should never sin again. But his Corinthians did and he had to warn that good deeds were needed to avoid losing grace.

Nice, but I think that is still not accurate enough. Belief and actions are usually connected. And good works or faith are only results of mind. If person has a righteous mind, it produces righteous actions. The actions don't make person righteous, but they can show that person is righteous. I think Paul and Jesus tries to correct that common misunderstanding that the actions (faith is also an action) are what makes a person righteous. Unfortunately many have misunderstood that so that then nothing really matters.

It would be good, if people would understand that actions are only like a fruit of a tree and tell is the tree good or bad. If one is righteous, it will be visible in his actions. And therefore, to determine that one is righteous, he must have righteous actions. However, making righteous actions doesn't necessary mean person is righteous, because the actions can be done with wrong reasons. And i think this is why Jesus preached that people should be born anew and there should happen change so that person becomes righteous. And if person is righteous, he wants to do right, because he understands it is good, not because of fear, or hope for reward.

p.s. I'll risk it. I suspect he wiped fake blood over his ear, but we shall see.

What do you think, should media be blamed for the shooting, because it has flirted with the idea of assassination and calls Trump irrationally Hitler or worse?

To be heretical is not necessarily wrong. Only that your doctrine departs from the Christian mainstream view that Jesus saves, not good deeds.

Aside from trying to make good deeds and religious teachings somehow the same because they happen essentially in the mind or the evasion of what the Sin is Eden actually was, the point is that all humans are inherently sinful (and deserving of death, or worse) even if they did nothing wrong, and Righteousness in itself doesn't save, only Faith in Jesus - so Paull argues or makes the point anyway.

Doing what Jesus says to do is fine, but the gospels make it clear that this only brings you near to 'the kingdomof heaven'. You must sell off your stuff and follow Jesus - which as you said once before can't be done as such as he left town. So you Follow' his church, and if you don't do what he said to do, you are not following his words.

Since i don't believe it, I don't have to find ways of dismissing this inconvenient fact.

As to the deplorable act the other night, looking at the event more carefully,Trump didn't fake it, it took him by surprise. The motive for a Republican voter to take a shot at him remains a puzzle. I doubt this was a stunt to make Trump look good (it might win him the election, so God help Ukraine, America and the world) or he thought Trump might lose the election and destroy the Republican party. We may find out.

No, i don't think the media or indeed Democtrat rhetoric eggs on anyone to shoot anyone else. Rather grab your gun and let loose is Maga rhetoric, which may be something to do with this business.

[1213]

...To be heretical is not necessarily wrong. Only that your doctrine departs from the Christian mainstream view that Jesus saves, not good deeds.

I think the mainstream Christians view is heretical, if it doesn't believe what Jesus tells.

Aside from trying to make good deeds and religious teachings somehow the same because they happen essentially in the mind or the evasion of what the Sin is Eden actually was, the point is that all humans are inherently sinful (and deserving of death, or worse) even if they did nothing wrong,

If one has not done anything wrong, he doesn't deserve death, by what is told in the Bible.

and Righteousness in itself doesn't save, only Faith in Jesus - so Paull argues or makes the point anyway.

I think Paul is misunderstood in that case. God saves, humans can do nothing to undo their wrong actions, and they can't forgive their sins without God, or Jesus.

Doing what Jesus says to do is fine, but the gospels make it clear that this only brings you near to 'the kingdomof heaven'. You must sell off your stuff and follow Jesus

I recommend to read the scriptures again.

...The motive for a Republican voter to take a shot at him remains a puzzle. I doubt this was a stunt to make Trump look good (it might win him the election, so God help Ukraine, America and the world) or he thought Trump might lose the election and destroy the Republican party. We may find out.

There is still hope for Biden's regime, even if they failed to assassinate Trump. They can always make ww3 warmer and so avoid the whole democracy thing, which obviously is not what they like.

No, i don't think the media or indeed Democtrat rhetoric eggs on anyone to shoot anyone else. Rather grab your gun and let loose is Maga rhetoric, which may be something to do with this business.

Interesting, I think calling Trump Hitler or worse easily leads some people to try to become hero by killing the "evil one".

[TRANSPONDER]

...To be heretical is not necessarily wrong. Only that your doctrine departs from the Christian mainstream view that Jesus saves, not good deeds.

I think the mainstream Christians view is heretical, if it doesn't believe what Jesus tells.

Aside from trying to make good deeds and religious teachings somehow the same because they happen essentially in the mind or the evasion of what the Sin is Eden actually was, the point is that all humans are inherently sinful (and deserving of death, or worse) even if they did nothing wrong,

If one has not done anything wrong, he doesn't deserve death, by what is told in the Bible.

and Righteousness in itself doesn't save, only Faith in Jesus - so Paull argues or makes the point anyway.

I think Paul is misunderstood in that case. God saves, humans can do nothing to undo their wrong actions, and they can't forgive their sins without God, or Jesus.

Doing what Jesus says to do is fine, but the gospels make it clear that this only brings you near to 'the kingdomof heaven'. You must sell off your stuff and follow Jesus

I recommend to read the scriptures again.

...The motive for a Republican voter to take a shot at him remains a puzzle. I doubt this was a stunt to make Trump look good (it might win him the election, so God help Ukraine, America and the world) or he thought Trump might lose the election and destroy the Republican party. We may find out.

There is still hope for Biden's regime, even if they failed to assassinate Trump. They can always make ww3 warmer and so avoid the whole democracy thing, which obviously is not what they like.

No, i don't think the media or indeed Democtrat rhetoric eggs on anyone to shoot anyone else. Rather grab your gun and let loose is Maga rhetoric, which may be something to do with this business.

Interesting, I think calling Trump Hitler or worse easily leads some people to try to become hero by killing the "evil one".

It is of course, a Problem for good people who do not have Faith in Jesus to not be saved, give or take Hell.
For instance, people who lived before Jesus or in other countries (1) or who died before they could be taught.

This a Problem for the Dogma and all sortsof amendments and magic spells have been invented to try to get over this. Which shows that it is Christian Dogma, but does not make sense as you have seen yourself, and I agree, but that is not Christianity and you have invented your own religion, though based on a fair point.

But if Jesusfaith is not necessary, r the Jesus is not necessary, and your assertion that Jesus' words lead to good works just creates the same problem. it clearly doesn't. And your denialism doesn't alter that. I would suggest you read the scriptures, not me, and take on what they say and not make up excuses like 'Jesus is no longer on earth, so I can't follow him'. ludicrous hypocrisy and evasion of a Bible passage you would prefer wasn't there. Have you hated and left father and mother or brother and sister? That's what Jesus says you should do. But I already know that you rewrite or ignore the Bible to make it way what you prefer.

And finally, Supposing this was not a conspiracy come true (staged shooting that went nowhere near but hit a teleprompter and a bit of glass hit Trump, which he hadn't expected) then it is possible a Republican saw what Trump and Maga was and decided to take action. But Democrats, media or anyone else can hardly be blamed for pointing out what anyone not sunk i in the cult can see., but Maga have to Cope with it not being a Democrat assassin as they would have preferred. So the Democreats have to be accused of attempted assassination by merely existing and not keeping quiet.

Rather like what fundamentalist Christians blame atheists for.

And if you think that putting a Putin puppet in the Presidency and giving Putin whatever he wants is somehow going to make further wars less likely, you need to get wise to what is really going on.

(1) like the story of the Eskimo and the missionary: "Would I go to hell if I never heard of Jesus?"
: ""No, not if you didn't know."
"Then why did you tell me?"

And to those frantically wagging their virtue signalling flags, the Native Baffinlander irritated by a virtue signalling 'more correct name than Inuit' contest, ended it with "It doesn't matter what you call us, but how you treat us". So I do not expect to head from SJWs trying to score 'more PC than you' brownie points.

[bjs1]

It is easy to dismiss as 'speculation' an argument one doesn't like. Take Paul in Romans, and indeed Corinthians. His arguments are wrong. They do not follow, like Faith in Abraham is Righteousness. That ought to be enough to save. But Paul avoids the conclusion that follows, that the Law that was imposed for hard -heartedness and only increases the chance of sinning, only has to be set aside and one has to beleive in God as Abraham did, and they will be Righteous, and worthy of being saved.

But no, apparently, none of those old prophets are going to be saved, Righteous or not, because they did not believe in Jesus. Apart from which, by Corinthians, he'd founf that Natural morality had only led to immorality, worse than the pagans.

Paul drags Jesus faith in as a necessary Faith or one doesn't get saved. This is the 'Christianity' that he invented as he says himself, he didn't get it from any man. And it really makes it a cult of specific belief that has caused problems ever since.

It is also easy to dismiss conjecture without supporting evidence or reason as “speculation.”

We can disagree about Paul’s writings (and we clearly do), but even if everything in this post was accurate, it still does not provide evidence that Paul invented anything.

The central claim that you and I have debated in this thread – that there is evidence that “Paul… invented Christianity” – remains false. There is speculation about Paul creating Christianity. There is no evidence.

[1213]

It is of course, a Problem for good people who do not have Faith in Jesus to not be saved, give or take Hell.
For instance, people who lived before Jesus or in other countries (1) or who died before they could be taught.

I don't think there is problem. People who have not heard of Jesus can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science testifying with them, and their thoughts among them-selves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

But if Jesusfaith is not necessary, r the Jesus is not necessary, and your assertion that Jesus' words lead to good works just creates the same problem. it clearly doesn't. And your denialism doesn't alter that. I would suggest you read the scriptures, not me, and take on what they say and not make up excuses like 'Jesus is no longer on earth, so I can't follow him'.

Jesus is necessary because it is through him who will be counted righteous and also because through him forgiveness is declared.

And about following Jesus, the scripture has, "go follow". You can't go, if he is not on earth.

Maga have to Cope with it not being a Democrat assassin as they would have preferred.

Registering to vote in republican event doesn't necessary make one a non democrat. And, if democrats would have arranged it, obviously they would have tied to remove any trace to democrats. That is why your saying is futile, means nothing and is not very intelligent.

I don't think republican or Trump needs the case at all, they are at the moment leading.

And if you think that putting a Putin puppet in the Presidency ...

I don't think there is anything good to support the claim Trump is somehow Putin's puppet. And actually, Biden is much better for China and Russia, because he is destroying U.S from within. Only small down side is that the Biden's teleprompter guy may launch nuclear war.

[TRANSPONDER]

It is of course, a Problem for good people who do not have Faith in Jesus to not be saved, give or take Hell.
For instance, people who lived before Jesus or in other countries (1) or who died before they could be taught.

I don't think there is problem. People who have not heard of Jesus can be counted righteous by this:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their con-science testifying with them, and their thoughts among them-selves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

But if Jesusfaith is not necessary, r the Jesus is not necessary, and your assertion that Jesus' words lead to good works just creates the same problem. it clearly doesn't. And your denialism doesn't alter that. I would suggest you read the scriptures, not me, and take on what they say and not make up excuses like 'Jesus is no longer on earth, so I can't follow him'.

Jesus is necessary because it is through him who will be counted righteous and also because through him forgiveness is declared.

And about following Jesus, the scripture has, "go follow". You can't go, if he is not on earth.

Maga have to Cope with it not being a Democrat assassin as they would have preferred.

Registering to vote in republican event doesn't necessary make one a non democrat. And, if democrats would have arranged it, obviously they would have tied to remove any trace to democrats. That is why your saying is futile, means nothing and is not very intelligent.

I don't think republican or Trump needs the case at all, they are at the moment leading.

And if you think that putting a Putin puppet in the Presidency ...

I don't think there is anything good to support the claim Trump is somehow Putin's puppet. And actually, Biden is much better for China and Russia, because he is destroying U.S from within. Only small down side is that the Biden's teleprompter guy may launch nuclear war.

If people who have never heard of Jesus can be righteous too, then Jesus and Christianity is not needed. Paul's quote shows that he thought that good was natural, though God - belief and Eden confuses that, but Paul was essentially a fraud.

But then you go on to say that Jesus is needed to say who is righteous and who isn't. Really? God couldn't say who was righteous, like Abraham, because of his Godfaith (or as you say following his orders). You may say Jesus has been made the judge, but that still makes him not needed to be good, if morality is innate as Paul says in that passage.

And the way you fiddle the reading of the Bible to excuse yourself from anything that doesn't suit is in fact typical of religion. If you think that Jesus not being on earth means you are excused from giving your dosh to the poor and devoting yourself to his church, you can, but it just looks like hypocrisy to me as well as too familiar Bible - fiddling when it is inconvenient.

And as the livewire thread on the hot topic right now until a Mod steps in, I am watching the evidence closely. The message seems to be that it was glass from the busted teleprompter cut Trump's ear (damn' that must have hurt). The shots were pretty poor to miss and to hit a bystander and apparently others were injured.

I'm occamming it that the lad was working alone, and his motives are murky. Less likely is that it was staged to make Trump a hero and win the election, which now seems likely. That terrible debate and this event might lose it for Biden who was looking to beat Trump in the polls. And we are all screwed and don't say nobody warned you, if so. Your attempts to wish it on the democrats for just being there, if not have orchestrated it, and never mind there is no evidence for that and all the evidence is against it, is part of the reason that the republicans ought - just this once - vote a Biden whitewash and drive out the Maga cult (just as we, the people, need to finally reject the hate cult that Woke has become, and don't nobody dare call me a racist or bigot - I was arguing for minority rights in the office union when being gay was still illegal) and we might get back to less polarised politics.

I hardly need to comment on the claim that Biden is somehow helping Russia and China by ruining America, when the stats show that everything has improved (less inflation, and even that is a bit better) from four years of disaster under Trump. But Maga (following Trump) are supporting Putin and his invasion of Ukraine. And thus they are supporters of China, N Korea and Iran, and how the heck did that happen? Let me say how I see it. Trump and his family used the presidency as their own money box - just as he is still using Republicans to grift money off (selling boots and Bibles, indeed) and Putin not only helped his schemes but has Dirt on him, not to mention a number of flights with Epstein, and nobody needs be l told what kind of pure soul Trump is.

If he gets elected, US will not support Ukraine. That will not cease the war but empower more war. Putin can't beat NATO (even if US leaves) and that'll make things that more bloody and dangerous, so the answer is to end the bloody stalemate - Ukraine has fought Russia to a standstill on its' own - and stop Putin's plans to restore the old Communist empire. Which is what Maga is aligned with right now. And it is denialist dogma - following, pump primed by religious fundamentalism, that has done this.

And have a nice day, all.

[1213]

.... then Jesus and Christianity is not needed. ...

At least he is needed for those who are not righteous, because by his words there can happen change in person so that one becomes righteous.

... if morality is innate as Paul says in that passage.

What Paul says doesn't necessary mean it is innate.

I hardly need to comment on the claim that Biden is somehow helping Russia and China by ruining America, when the stats show that everything has improved (less inflation, and even that is a bit better) from four years of disaster under Trump.

It seems you have rejected reality and substituted your own, or that what comes from Biden's propaganda office.

...and stop Putin's plans to restore the old Communist empire. ..

If Putin would be a communist, EU and soviet U.S. would be on his side.

[TRANSPONDER]

.... then Jesus and Christianity is not needed. ...

At least he is needed for those who are not righteous, because by his words there can happen change in person so that one becomes righteous.

... if morality is innate as Paul says in that passage.

What Paul says doesn't necessary mean it is innate.

I hardly need to comment on the claim that Biden is somehow helping Russia and China by ruining America, when the stats show that everything has improved (less inflation, and even that is a bit better) from four years of disaster under Trump.

It seems you have rejected reality and substituted your own, or that what comes from Biden's propaganda office.

...and stop Putin's plans to restore the old Communist empire. ..

If Putin would be a communist, EU and soviet U.S. would be on his side.

The only thing worth responding to there (your political view of reality should tip us off to why your Bible apologetics end up so denialist) is the idea that Jesus is needed for the words that...what was it? can cause change in a person. But that can happen in any religion. So if God is real and is not totally incompetent, then any Inspiration counts. Jesus is no more needed than Buddha, Muhammad or Indra. sure, you can say you get your inspiration from Jesus, but that is just one inspiration to Good amongst others. Or none, as atheism made Such a difference to my Life. Clarifying reason - based ethics beyond pick and mix rule - following such as it seems you do with the Bible. You can ignore the command to sell your Bike, CD's and Gold topped trump sneakers on the excuse that Jesus has gone to heaven so you can ignore any inconvenient stuff in the Bible.

I'm glad to not be a Christian but doubly glad not to be a fundamentalist Christian, as one only infect the brain like a virus; the latter takes it over like a poison.

I said before that Religious apologetics are like cult - think, like UFO apologists used the same kind of faithbassed logic; dismissal of science as a conspiracy, inversion of burden of proof, a grab - bag full of 'disprove this, then' which science has to prove or admit that the Cultfaith is real.

Same with the Daiiniken thing, Homeopathy Flat earth, and crop circles. The idiots are still in a denialist cult even though it is known to be a fraud and a fake and we even know who started it. But that's the case with Scientology and Mormons, too.

They have the evidence it's a fake before them, but they stick their heads in the sand. And I need hardly point out that there is another crazy cult going on and more dangerous than any before, the Maga cult can be traced back to evolution denial at the Scopes trial. Creationism (and the debate) went public on the Internet and the Tea party became a platform, and now I heard it was funded by the fossil fuel companies exploiting science skepticm to debunk climate change. And that led to Maga and Covid denial and now a totally messed up Maga support for Putin (because Trump owed shim and Putin has naughty videos of him ) and yet you seem to think that the Democrats are trying to turn the US and west to communism and should be on the side of Putin, Xi and Kim, because communism is still a dirty word (like Fascist) but Maga is supporting Trumps endorsing the totalitarian regimes of Russia, China N. Korea and Iran. Explain that to me, please, until the Mods step is n, hot e wit democrats should be on the side of the one party dictators while trump is praising Putin and hosting the Putin Puppet Orban to dinner.

[1213]

...as atheism made Such a difference to my Life. Clarifying reason - based ethics beyond pick and mix rule...

Allegedly atheism is only lack of belief, no doctrine, nothing else, so how can it bring anything else than emptiness to anyone's life? Be reasonable.

I'm glad to not be a Christian but doubly glad not to be a fundamentalist Christian, as one only infect the brain like a virus; the latter takes it over like a poison.

I said before that Religious apologetics are like cult - think, like UFO apologists used the same kind of faithbassed logic; dismissal of science as a conspiracy, inversion of burden of proof, a grab - bag full of 'disprove this, then' which science has to prove or admit that the Cultfaith is real.

That reminds me of this scripture:

Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.
Romans 2:1

...And I need hardly point out that there is another crazy cult going on and more dangerous than any before, the Maga cult

How it is dangerous? By not trying to end freedom of speech like Biden's regime has tried to do?

But, I think that is not totally bad comment. I hope Trump supporters avoid fanaticism. There are signs of that and it is disturbing.

...to debunk climate change.

Has car industry hijacked your count to preach the message of climate cult, in attempt to make people to buy more electric cars so that the weather would be gooder?

And that led to Maga and Covid denial and now a totally messed up Maga support for Putin (because Trump owed shim and Putin has naughty videos of him

How do you know Putin has those videos?

because communism is still a dirty word (like Fascist) ...

Communism and fascism are essentially the same, no meaningful difference.