There is no rational reason to stop same sex marriage

[Evales]

It's hard for me to view homosexuality as that bad of a thing if someone is born to be that way. I could not judge them against it if they were born that way.

Ok, but what if it turns out to be entirely a matter of choice? Would you judge them against it then? If so, what harm, to others or themselves, would you invoke?

Homosexuality

Point 1) If biological it is something that God created and thus we should not be punished for it since it is natural.

Point 2) That being even if it is still a sin (or not biological) the people who commit acts of homosexuality are fully allowed (by God) to commit as many sins as they like. God gave us the freedom of choice to commit sins or to chose to follow him how we like.

Point 3) Also since not everyone believes there is an afterlife we have no reason to stop them from committing these "sins" if they do not hurt anyone. The only person they hurt is themselves (according to theists) because they will then go to Hell, a place that they do not even believe exists.


There is no rational reason for us to stop same sex marriage.
Throughout history ignorant and oppressive people have stopped certain minorities from gaining certain rights but we see a trend that these minorities are gradually allowed these rights.

To be honest I'm surprised we still oppress homosexuals and bisexuals. How archaic.

[Heavenlymedia]

You are certainly free to think and feel about it any way you choose.
I am simply offering my understanding. Not trying to sell you God or government or oppression or eternity.

I will ask you, why do government officals say; "so help me God"? Are they crazy? Are they acting? Personally, I think people should be able to marry whomever they wish including animals, HA! That being said; I don't believe it would be helpful IF there is a world to come.

I am not gay. I also feel oppressed by government and societies unfairness. I guess feeling oppressed is part of being alive.

Take care,

[Beto]

I will ask you, why do government officals say; "so help me God"? Are they crazy? Are they acting?(...)

I'm an atheist and I still let out a "thank God" or "God willing" every now and then. Society conditions people that way, and whether or not one actually believes in "God" is of little relevance. These expressions come out naturally as response to certain situations. And as far as government officials are concerned, atheists don't really mind a personal "so help me God" (gods in the Constitution are another matter) as long as the person is competent, whereas theists might tend to focus more on the absence of a "so help me God".

[Heavenlymedia]

Thanks for writing.

I would suggest to you that society conditions people and it is natural even for you an atheist to utter the name of God for a very good reason. Religion does not do a good job communicating the things of God. That being said; the reason why politicians and kings take an oath before God is to be accountable to God. What they think is unimportant, they are responsible. To think competence is the measure of politicians especially given the present lot gives testament to man's inability to surrender himself to God allowing him to do what is best for the society to which God has delivered him.

This idea is way beyond what religion teaches. I am not a religious man but am a servant of God. The process of how this happens, becoming a servant, is way beyond the ways of men. It's hard to explain here and difficult to explain at all.

I close by saying, the choice to swear by God is not the individual man or woman's choice but he is required to say it, by law. There is a reason.

[Beto]

I would suggest to you that society conditions people and it is natural even for you an atheist to utter the name of God for a very good reason.

I fail to see any actual benefit to saying "thank God" instead of, for instance, "how fortunate". It's a conditioned reflex, nothing more. One I keep correcting better and better. When I said "every now and then" I didn't mean to imply it was often. Much the contrary.

Religion does not do a good job communicating the things of God.

Since no gods communicate with me in an objective way, and since Religion also fails at it, I have absolutely no reason to believe any gods are real.

That being said; the reason why politicians and kings take an oath before God is to be accountable to God.

I don't think you can demonstrate that those people really believe they are accountable to "God", as opposed to saying things simply because it's pretty much a "rule" and is expected.

What they think is unimportant, they are responsible.

Only according to you. If they don't really believe in something you can't demonstrate to be real, the only accountability that "exists" is in your mind.

To think competence is the measure of politicians especially given the present lot gives testament to man's inability to surrender himself to God allowing him to do what is best for the society to which God has delivered him.

Sorry, but all I see here is a collection of non-sequiturs.

This idea is way beyond what religion teaches. I am not a religious man but am a servant of God. The process of how this happens, becoming a servant, is way beyond the ways of men. It's hard to explain here and difficult to explain at all.

You could try... unless being "open-minded" is part of the method. If that's case you don't have to bother.

I close by saying, the choice to swear by God is not the individual man or woman's choice but he is required to say it, by law. There is a reason.

Who's "law"?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 15 Post 142

That being said; the reason why politicians and kings take an oath before God is to be accountable to God.

I would propose it is a final test for theocracies. When the king is accountable to the church, he is accountable to the clergy. Unless this God can be shown to exist we should not by default become beholden to Him. The history of this Earth tells us what religion does when it infects politics.

To think competence is the measure of politicians especially given the present lot gives testament to man's inability to surrender himself to God allowing him to do what is best for the society to which God has delivered him.

As a 'measure' I have more trust in measuring this man by those tests of competency to which he's liable. Without knowing this God exists, there is no way we can begin to worry about His idiosyncrasies.

You are wanting us to accept a given person by measure of something we ourselves can't measure. Are you saying you speak as an official representative of which God?

This idea is way beyond what religion teaches. I am not a religious man but am a servant of God. The process of how this happens, becoming a servant, is way beyond the ways of men. It's hard to explain here and difficult to explain at all.

You're a 'servant of God'? Though you yourself claim next that becoming such is way beyond the ways of men?
Delusional, inconsistent information is what doomed religion as a viable source of accurate data.

I close by saying, the choice to swear by God is not the individual man or woman's choice but he is required to say it, by law. There is a reason.

I don't have a choice in the matter, the evidence for god claims measures no more than a quality myth.

I see you state that your edict here is "The Law", could you please explain:
1: How does one go about breaking this law.
2: What are the potential penalties my friend here is facing if he, my friend here, were to break this law?

[Confused]

MODERATOR ACTION:

Moved to Politics and Religion as it is a political course needed to institute the legal acceptance of same sex marriage and it is the religious course to prevent it.

[userr123]

Point 1) Homosexuality is not a natural thing; it is a choice that people make and no one is born gay no matter what they say. 1 Thessalonians 4:4-6 "that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you."

Point 2) It is a sin and yes, God did give us the freedom to choose, although it does not justify it whatsoever. We (Christians) are supposed to spread the gospel across the world and not watch everyone else crumble under sin right in front of our eyes. It is not right to just stand by and watch a person ruin their life because of bad choices when you know you have the truth and the power by God to change their lives. No where does it say that God allows for homosexuality. Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral."

[Goat]

Point 1) Homosexuality is not a natural thing; it is a choice that people make and no one is born gay no matter what they say. 1 Thessalonians 4:4-6 "that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you."

Is it a choice? When did you choose to become a heterosexual? It sounds like
Thesalonians is talking about promiscuity , not homosexual marriage. How is two people joining in a stable loving relationship a 'sin'. Why should people in the modern age accept what Paul of Tarsus, someone who has a lot of sexual hangups and hates all sorts of sex say? Do you plan to take his advice and not get married or have sex ever?

]

Point 2) It is a sin and yes, God did give us the freedom to choose, although it does not justify it whatsoever. We (Christians) are supposed to spread the gospel across the world and not watch everyone else crumble under sin right in front of our eyes. It is not right to just stand by and watch a person ruin their life because of bad choices when you know you have the truth and the power by God to change their lives. No where does it say that God allows for homosexuality. Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral."

Again, you quote one that points to promiscuity, not a stable loving relationship.

Why force others to Paul's hangups?

[userr123]

Ok since you think those verses are non-relevant, I will present more that talk directly to homosexuals.

Leviticus 20:13a "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."

1Corinthians 6:9-11
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Niether the sexually immoral nor idolatoers nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.l

Matthew 19:4-5
"'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.'

This clearly states that marriage is made to be between one man and one woman.

[Goat]

Ok since you think those verses are non-relevant, I will present more that talk directly to homosexuals.

Leviticus 20:13a "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."

1Corinthians 6:9-11
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Niether the sexually immoral nor idolatoers nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.l

Matthew 19:4-5
"'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.'

This clearly states that marriage is made to be between one man and one woman.

So, in that case, Christians should not marry someone of their own gender, if that is the way Christians define it. However, there is such a thing known as 'separation of church and state.' Of course, the Leviticus only talks about anal sex..

Why should non-Christians follow Christian law? What is the rational reason for the government, which is dedicated to make no law giving one religion rights over another religion, base it's laws on the Christian religion?