The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[East of Eden]

A very interesting and compelling article.

I applaud those mentioned who were self-critical enough to challenge their own assumptions and sought to put the well-being of their clients ahead of ideology. I was also interested to learn that this applied to "both sides." It is a fair point to consider that for some individuals, their religious identity is and always will be more important than their sexual identity.

I am glad to see that evangelicals are coming to see sexual orientation is generally not changeable. Acknowledging this is important. Even if there is not acceptance that homosexuality is OK from a religious standpoint, at least accepting it as a fact and that trying to change that orientation is pointless and even harmful, then we are moving forward to a better place.

Nonsense, there are many with same-sex feelings who by the grace of God, have gotten their behaviors in line with God's will. The actual proves the possible. See http://exodusinternational.org/about-us/

Do you also believe pedophiles can never change?

[East of Eden]

NY is the 6th State to join those who went before in passing anti-discrimination legislation. See? we are truely becoming a more civilized country.

Or a more Godless one. Nothing new about that.

[Clownboat]

A very interesting and compelling article.

I applaud those mentioned who were self-critical enough to challenge their own assumptions and sought to put the well-being of their clients ahead of ideology. I was also interested to learn that this applied to "both sides." It is a fair point to consider that for some individuals, their religious identity is and always will be more important than their sexual identity.

I am glad to see that evangelicals are coming to see sexual orientation is generally not changeable. Acknowledging this is important. Even if there is not acceptance that homosexuality is OK from a religious standpoint, at least accepting it as a fact and that trying to change that orientation is pointless and even harmful, then we are moving forward to a better place.

Nonsense, there are many with same-sex feelings who by the grace of God, have gotten their behaviors in line with God's will. The actual proves the possible. See http://exodusinternational.org/about-us/

Do you also believe pedophiles can never change?

If Christians can change, I don't see why a pedophile can't change.

[Clownboat]

NY is the 6th State to join those who went before in passing anti-discrimination legislation. See? we are truely becoming a more civilized country.

Or a more Godless one. Nothing new about that.

More godless = more civilized? Hmm. I will have to ponder that one. You may be on to something.

[East of Eden]

NY is the 6th State to join those who went before in passing anti-discrimination legislation. See? we are truely becoming a more civilized country.

Or a more Godless one. Nothing new about that.

More godless = more civilized? Hmm. I will have to ponder that one. You may be on to something.

'Or', not =.

You must think the USSR was civilized.

[Clownboat]

NY is the 6th State to join those who went before in passing anti-discrimination legislation. See? we are truely becoming a more civilized country.

Or a more Godless one. Nothing new about that.

More godless = more civilized? Hmm. I will have to ponder that one. You may be on to something.

'Or', not =.

You must think the USSR was civilized.

I never said that, and besides, is it not possible to have exceptions to almost every rule?

Your (indirect) point still requires pondering:
More godless = more civilized?

[JoeyKnothead]

Nonsense, there are many with same-sex feelings who by the grace of God, have gotten their behaviors in line with God's will.

Your problem now is to show you know God's will.

[Scotracer]

NY is the 6th State to join those who went before in passing anti-discrimination legislation. See? we are truely becoming a more civilized country.

Or a more Godless one. Nothing new about that.

Well it appears that isn't the case...



Maybe people from the red states really just like a good deal (i.e. free stuff).

[micatala]

A very interesting and compelling article.

I applaud those mentioned who were self-critical enough to challenge their own assumptions and sought to put the well-being of their clients ahead of ideology. I was also interested to learn that this applied to "both sides." It is a fair point to consider that for some individuals, their religious identity is and always will be more important than their sexual identity.

I am glad to see that evangelicals are coming to see sexual orientation is generally not changeable. Acknowledging this is important. Even if there is not acceptance that homosexuality is OK from a religious standpoint, at least accepting it as a fact and that trying to change that orientation is pointless and even harmful, then we are moving forward to a better place.

Nonsense, there are many with same-sex feelings who by the grace of God, have gotten their behaviors in line with God's will. The actual proves the possible. See http://exodusinternational.org/about-us/

I will accept that some people with same-sex orientation have managed their feelings so that they do not act on those feelings. In fact, the article posted by sailing notes this.

However, the same-sex feelings do not go away. They are simply managed. The overwhelming evidence is that orientation is not changeable for nearly everyone.


Exodus International is not a reliable source of information. They simply deny any evidence that runs counter to their views. I will point out that Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, co-founders of Exodus, now repudiate the whole premise and enterprise and held a life commitment ceremony with each other some 22 years ago now. Bussee has apologized for the harm he did in 2007.

There are numerous examples of people having gone through "conversion therapies" and at first claiming they were "cured" only to admit later that was not the case.

Do you also believe pedophiles can never change?

I am not going to dignify your continual association of gays with pedophiles with any further responses until you go back through the thread and address the responses on this issue, in detail, that have already been made. I view your continued raising of this issue as a blatant smear tactic, nothing more.

[East of Eden]

I will accept that some people with same-sex orientation have managed their feelings so that they do not act on those feelings. In fact, the article posted by sailing notes this.

So for those who DO want to change their orientation, why not furnish them with resources to do so? Sexual orientation is about as changeable as other things people get counseling for.

However, the same-sex feelings do not go away. They are simply managed. The overwhelming evidence is that orientation is not changeable for nearly everyone.

I agree, but speaking from a Christian position it is always possible to do the will of God and refrain from immorality. A celibate person with same-sex feelings is in the same position as a single heterosexual who chooses to remail celibate for the sake of his Christian beliefs. It isn't a whole lot different than married heterosexuals trapped in a bad marriage who feel tempted towards adultery. Those feelings may never go away either.

Exodus International is not a reliable source of information.

Nonsense. That is a baseless ad hominem.

They simply deny any evidence that runs counter to their views.

As I see those advancing the pro-gay agenda doing all the time here. See the previous discussion on the mortality rates of gay men.

I will point out that Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, co-founders of Exodus, now repudiate the whole premise and enterprise and held a life commitment ceremony with each other some 22 years ago now.

And if you had an alcoholic who fell off the wagon, so what? Here's an article on a former member of the gay rights movement who renounced it all and became a Christian. Does that prove anything?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=49

There are numerous examples of people having gone through "conversion therapies" and at first claiming they were "cured" only to admit later that was not the case.

Again, true of alcoholics and pedophiles.

I am not going to dignify your continual association of gays with pedophiles with any further responses until you go back through the thread and address the responses on this issue, in detail, that have already been made. I view your continued raising of this issue as a blatant smear tactic, nothing more.

Nonsense, I am not equating gays with pedophiles. People who sexually prey on children need to be flogged, or worse. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of those who say pedophiles can change their sexual orientation but gays never can. If someone wants to continue in their gay lifestyle, that's their business, but if someone wants to change, they should be supported, not told that it is impossible and that they are bad for wanting to do so.