The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[SailingCyclops]

I believe the body count under Mao of that atheistic regime was much higher than Stalin's.

40 million murdered by Mao Zedong
20 million murdered by Joseph Stalin

However Religious murders far outperform each of them:

11,500,000 murdered in the Thirty Years' War -- Holy Roman Empire
4,000,000 murdered in the French Wars of Religion
9,000,000 murdered in the Crusades
15,000,000 murdered in the Conquest of the Americas -- Church of Spain
13,000,000 murdered in the Muslim Conquest of India
9,000,000 murdered in the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries
-------------
61,500,000 total

Refs:
List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll
Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century
The witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries

I won't even count how Hitler's religious beliefs (Christianity) was responsible for the murder of 6,000,000 Jews.

Bob

[JoeyKnothead]

I challenge you to show you speak truth in this regard.

That is my opinion, I never said I could scientifically prove it, as I assume you again expect me to do. 'Satisfaction' is subjective.

So we see then your claim is empty as a Sunday morning liquor bottle.

Oh, I get it, nothing outside of a science lab can be proved.

Please note, this is not a science lab, it is an internet debate forum. It has its own standards of acceptable evidence, fine tuned to each subforoom.

I'd think if you could prove your claim, you woulda tried, rather than use the tired "it's my opinion".

When you can show your opinion is accurate, please try to do so in the link provided back there when I first presented the challenge.

[GiddyUp]

I believe the body count under Mao of that atheistic regime was much higher than Stalin's.

40 million murdered by Mao Zedong
20 million murdered by Joseph Stalin

However Religious murders far outperform each of them:

11,500,000 murdered in the Thirty Years' War -- Holy Roman Empire
4,000,000 murdered in the French Wars of Religion
9,000,000 murdered in the Crusades
15,000,000 murdered in the Conquest of the Americas -- Church of Spain
13,000,000 murdered in the Muslim Conquest of India
9,000,000 murdered in the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries
-------------
61,500,000 total

Refs:
List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll
Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century
The witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries

I won't even count how Hitler's religious beliefs (Christianity) was responsible for the murder of 6,000,000 Jews.

Bob

Since people who died in famines under atheists were murdered then you can add the millions of Indians and Irish who died in famines under the British Empire, and since the Taiping Rebellion, WW1 and WW2 were started and waged principally by theists you can add those as a whole too. Needless to say, throwing around these 'bodycounts' is really silly and simplistic, and I have to say that all those numbers, both those attributed to Stalin and Mao and those of say, the Crusades and the Witch hunts are very much suspect.

[lastcallhall]

So yes, to a large degree Christianity IS the problem, spectacularly so here in the U.S. where the aforementioned ills abound amidst bigotry and hate towards many. In this thread, that bigotry and hate with it's concomitant violence, is clearly seen displayed towards the gay community.

Nobody has shown where any christian on this thread hates anybody, you view our objection to a lifestyle our Bible calls sin hatred. You can it is your right but it also does not make you right. This case in New Mexico is proof that christians will be sued for their opinions and forced to bow to secular opinion. I stand by I don't hate anyone and will never compromise my beliefs even if it is unpopular or illegal.

Romans 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ

[JoeyKnothead]

Romans 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ

Matthew 1:7

7 Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

[East of Eden]

Christianity is a major social problem. Societies are worse off 'when they have God on their side'


THE SUNDAY TIMES

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its spiritual capital. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.
[...]

Yes, Europeans always want to put down the US and lift themselves up. To them, fascism is forever coming to the US but somehow it only lands in Europe. Things were just peachy when the religion-free Soviet Gulag was in power, right?

The article ignores, for instance, what William Wilberforce and his movement did to end the slave trade and institute a long list of positive societal reforms.

Interesting how immigrants are lining up to come here but not Belgium.

Voltaire was correct when he said "If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities". The more religious we become as a nation, the more war-like and violent we become.

You mean this guy? Sounds like his plan may not have turned out so well.

"And on his deathbed, a nurse who attended him was reported to have said, "For all the wealth in Europe, I would not see another atheist die."

The physician, waiting up with Voltaire at his death, said that he cried out with utter desperation, "I am abandoned by God and man. I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months of life. Then I shall go to hell and you will go with me, oh, Christ, oh, Jesus Christ!"

[sarabellum]

Wow this one is a mind bender!


I have one question.

What exactly is "The Gay agenda"?

Is that on-line some where?(Provide source.)
Did I miss a "mission statement?"
Have they all agreed on a plan of attack?

I'd like to see it in writing.

[East of Eden]

40 million murdered by Mao Zedong
20 million murdered by Joseph Stalin

However Religious murders far outperform each of them:

11,500,000 murdered in the Thirty Years' War -- Holy Roman Empire
4,000,000 murdered in the French Wars of Religion
9,000,000 murdered in the Crusades
15,000,000 murdered in the Conquest of the Americas -- Church of Spain
13,000,000 murdered in the Muslim Conquest of India
9,000,000 murdered in the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries
-------------
61,500,000 total

Refs:
List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll
Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century
The witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries

I won't even count how Hitler's religious beliefs (Christianity) was responsible for the murder of 6,000,000 Jews.

Bob

Wow, what a bogus post this is. You neglect to include wars conducted by Stalin and Mao, which would have put their totals way up. The Crusades, a legitimate counter-offensive against Muslim aggression, was hardly 'religious murder'. As far as the Thirty Years War, while religious motives were present initially, historians today emphasize that these wars were mainly driven by political contests of power. The emerging nation-states of Europe were clashing with each other over territory and influence. We can see how political motives overrode religious ones in the role played by Catholic France in the latter phases of the war. Concerned about the strength of the greatest Catholic power in the world, the Holy Roman Empire, French statesman Cardinal Richelieu organized a force made up of Swedes and Frenchmen to help the Protestant side.

Likewise, Sweden's Gustavus Adolphus is remembered today as a protector of Protestants, but he fought mainly to seize Baltic lands. he once said that if religion had been his cause, he would have attacked the pope.

The native deaths that followed the discovery of America were mainly from disease. This was a huge human tragedy but in no sense did it constitute a crime. This would have happened if the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria had been manned by Jimmy Carter, the Dalai Lama, and Bono.

I am glad the Spanish put an end to the Aztec practice of tearing the hearts out of hundreds of thousands of living sacrificial victims yearly. The only reason the Spanish were as successful as they were is because neighboring native tribes were eager to overthrow the tyrannical Aztecs.

Your witch hunt figure also seems fishy. The total deaths from the infamous Salem witch trials was 19, about the number of people the US kills by abortion every few minutes.

Dinesh D'Souza estimates that deaths caused by Christian rulers over a 500 year period amount to only 1% of the deaths caused by Stalin, Hitler, and Mao in the space of a few decades.

[East of Eden]

What exactly is "The Gay agenda"?

Is that on-line some where?(Provide source.)
Did I miss a "mission statement?"
Have they all agreed on a plan of attack?

I'd like to see it in writing.

How about this: To normalize perversion.

[lastcallhall]

Romans 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ

Matthew 1:7

7 Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

I agree 100%, if I was living in sin I would hope somebody would call me on it.