The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[Clownboat]

No you have not but I can answer 100% there is no chance I would get sexually aroused. I think the male body is hairy and disgusting so again 0.0% chance I would be aroused. Thinking about it you could not even get me into the bar I do not like to be around that sort of "partying"

I will then take this as your admition that being homosexual is not a choice.

If god hates homosexuals, why does he make so many of them?

[Autodidact]

It's playing out that you may have some bigoted hateful views against a certain minority

In your opinion, I find your view to be more hateful as if people listen to your view they would be destined for hell. I try to speak the truth and unless you know my heart, you would have to be God, how can you POSSIBLY know if I hate anyone? You can continue to paint me in that light but it will not stop me from preaching God's word, sorry.

I don't know your heart, only your actions. Your actions in this discussion have been less than decent. Your assertion was not about your religious belief. It was a factual assertion about the real world, and it was false. What do you call it when someone makes false assertions about other people?

and when your source is shown to be crap and others shown to be good that counter what you claim, I'm truly amazed that this is the best you can come up with?

I am sorry if I can't meet your standards

You should be. My standards are that people should be honest and open to learning the facts.

One side has qualified people, the other not. Throw critical thinking right out the window and go la la la, god is on my side, so I am justified having my hate filled speech because I am actually just hating the sin, not the people I often compare with pedophiles.

And you discount anyones opinion if they work for a christian organization. I compare nobody to pedophiles.

I don't care who they work for, as long as they use good scientific methodology.

[Autodidact]

Ok, how do you explain that no state when put to popular vote has voted to allow gay marriage? Most people still believe in the Bible, IMO.

Several people have pointed out to you that you would benefit from learning the most common logical fallacies. This one is called the fallacy ad populum. How many people believe something does not determine whether it was true. If it did, your religion would be false, wouldn't it? Further, we are not discussing gay marriage now. We are discussing whether children progress better with heterosexual rather than same sex parents. They do not. Why do people believe otherwise? Because people like you go around spreading misinformation, that's why.

Unless you can demonstrate first that the Bible is right itself, all we have is an incomplete compass without a fixed North. You could be walking to the East and you'd not know or care with this reasoning - because you've already arbitrarily assigned a North without any kind of justification, and you seem to have closed yourself to any further inquiry.

I see your point and don't totally disagree because I don't think the truth changes just because society does.

And when the question is one of fact in the world, how do we determine what is true? I use science.

[Autodidact]

Your claim once again is false, I base this on the fact that the bible can be interpreted to say all sorts of things that are not in agreement. It is not god telling you are anyone else anything, that claim is a lie and you only use it to justify your horrible behavior. If it was, we would not have the issue that we have now of all the different opinions about what god wants, hates, loves ect...

No, it does not make me wrong it shows that people can view the same thing with a different story. Example, it might be bad but, a Braves fan will say Sid Bream was safe in the NLCS in game 7 to win the game. A Pirates fan will swear he was tagged out. Both feel they are right but only one can be. There is only one truth and of course I believe I have found it. After reading God's word it seems clear to me the homosexual lifestyle is sin.

That's not the issue we're discussing. You can believe whatever you want about that. We're discussing how well lesbians do at parenting, and how well their children do. That has nothing to do with sin. We have a method for overcoming human bias. It's called science. It works. We have a way to resolve questions such as whether a runner was tagged out--film. It's possible to overcome bias. That's what science is for.

Since you cannot prove that your personal opinion of a god is the true one, I must consider your words for what they seem to be... bigoted and hate filled.

I am sorry you feel that way but please prove that you know my heart that I hate anyone

I don't care what it's in your heart. I care how you treat people. Telling lies about people is wrong. That's what I'm concerned with. And by telling lies like that, you are doing harm to actual children who need families, and who are growing up in lesiban families.

Personally, I think Jesus would be ashamed of you. But by all means, continue your evil works, because that apparently is what your god wants.

Fair enough, I live my life to please Jesus and follow his word. You don't see me doing a good job and that is ok with me. I will stand before Jesus one day and answer for my actions and I can say I feel good about how that conversation will go as I try to warn many people of what the Bible calls sin, not just this one.

How does Jesus feel about lying?

[Clownboat]

Your claim once again is false, I base this on the fact that the bible can be interpreted to say all sorts of things that are not in agreement. It is not god telling you are anyone else anything, that claim is a lie and you only use it to justify your horrible behavior. If it was, we would not have the issue that we have now of all the different opinions about what god wants, hates, loves ect...

No, it does not make me wrong it shows that people can view the same thing with a different story. Example, it might be bad but, a Braves fan will say Sid Bream was safe in the NLCS in game 7 to win the game. A Pirates fan will swear he was tagged out. Both feel they are right but only one can be. There is only one truth and of course I believe I have found it. After reading God's word it seems clear to me the homosexual lifestyle is sin.

I tell no lies, I stand on God's word.

God said that children with two moms do worse than children with a mom and dad? Would you cite the verse where He says that?

Since you found your truth after reading god's word, please support your truth by giving us the verse you are using to come to this claim.

Since you cannot prove that your personal opinion of a god is the true one, I must consider your words for what they seem to be... bigoted and hate filled.

I am sorry you feel that way but please prove that you know my heart that I hate anyone

Ok. You claim to get your truth from god's word.
Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests righteous people, but he hates wicked people and the ones who love violence.

Personally, I think Jesus would be ashamed of you. But by all means, continue your evil works, because that apparently is what your god wants.

Fair enough, I live my life to please Jesus and follow his word. You don't see me doing a good job and that is ok with me. I will stand before Jesus one day and answer for my actions and I can say I feel good about how that conversation will go as I try to warn many people of what the Bible calls sin, not just this one.

You're lucky that you will never have to stand before said god.

[lastcallhall]

We're not talking about sin.

Sin enters the equation but ok if you don't want to talk about it.

We're talking about child welfare and effective parenting. Surely you don't think you have the right to impose your religious beliefs on my parenting?

I am not telling you what to do, I am just giving you what the Bible says and other people who believe the Bible. You can reject the Bible, me, and everyone else that you do not agree with.

You have done something very wrong. You have made detrimental false statements about an entire group of people. That's known as bigotry, as well as dishonesty, and I think it's wrong.

In your mind I am wrong

But then, I'm not Christian, your moral system may allow you to make bigoted false statements like that. Does it?

It is not bigoted or false. I can give you a long list of christians that feel the Bible is very clear. You can reject them as well but please don't tell me I am lying.

[lastcallhall]

Second, most Christians do not agree with your interpretation of the Bible.

Really, where is that fact I would love to see it.

Third, where in the Bible does it say that children with two moms don't do as well as children with a mom and dad? I can't find that passage.

It does not mention your specific question but I believe God makes it very clear his view on marriage and the homosexual lifestyle.

Genesis 2:24
New King James Version (NKJV)


24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.


Romans 1:26-32
New King James Version (NKJV)

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

this tells me God's view on homosexuality

Try to stay on point. We're not talking about Biblical morality. We're talking about child welfare.

sorry

You have no idea who they are.

I said IMO

They are the mainstream, overwhelming majority of doctors, social workers, psychologists and adoption experts in our country. You have a tendency to judge people based on stereotypes and prejudice. Didn't your mother teach you better than that?

I did not say all, I said most. This is from my experience, nothing more

I know it's hard to admit error. Think of it as practice in humility, which is good for you.

I am a very humble person but I have not made a mistake with the Bible

[lastcallhall]

I will then take this as your admition that being homosexual is not a choice.

I think people have homosexual leanings and that is not choice but it is also a learned behavior from your environment.

If god hates homosexuals, why does he make so many of them?

He made all of us sinners some just happen to have the sin of the homosexual lifestyle. I sin daily and God made me.

[lastcallhall]

I don't know your heart, only your actions. Your actions in this discussion have been less than decent.

I don't feel that way, I do not think you are a bad person at all, in fact most gay people I know are some of the nicest people I have met. I have no problem with you personally.

Your assertion was not about your religious belief. It was a factual assertion about the real world, and it was false. What do you call it when someone makes false assertions about other people?

You can reject my conclusions but I am not lying. You can say I am reading the Bible wrong but I am not lying about my beliefs.

I don't care who they work for, as long as they use good scientific methodology.

How do you know they are not?

[lastcallhall]

And when the question is one of fact in the world, how do we determine what is true? I use science.

We all use different sources for truth but there is only one truth, I use the Bible.