Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[boatsnguitars]

ALL CHOICES ARE A CHOICE. Smoking, drinking, taking a shower, selecting clothing, and having sex are all CHOICES. When and where one decides to do things are CHOICES. This isn't rocket science ---- and even that is a CHOICE...

Drinking is a choice. Agreed, but if one doesn't drink water, they die. Right?

So, are you claiming that everything is a choice, but that some choices are more critical to who were are as a person - because we didn't choose to rely on food and water... or do you think we do choose to be mortal and be human?

Certainly, you are a smart enough person to realize the discussion isn't about choosing which tie to wear, but who we find ourselves to be as human beings and whether of not we are attracted to a certain sex, or have a predisposition towards being a religious extremist, or drink alcohol, or gamble, etc.

It's very true that it isn't rocket science, and it's also true that you've reduced the discussion to something it's not. This is why I keep repeating that religionists are not good at logic. They are taught to believe that being incredibly simplistic and reductionary is getting to the truth of the matter when it is the opposite.

If you believe what you say do me a favor:

Choose to believe there is no God for a year, then you may choose to believe there isn't. Let's test your non-rocket science. Tell us how you fare.

[oldbadger]

I listened for about 25 seconds ........

There is nothing like a closed mind, except maybe one that has been ideologically captured.

The very first thing that he told us is wrong........ many of our UK police do carry weapons.

One can uphold the value and dignity of trans identifying people without sacrificing the truth. Gad Saad has a knack of getting to the crux of the issue. This is for those who still have an open mind.

Anthropologists Reject the Hateful & Corrosive Notion of Two Biological Sexes (THE SAAD TRUTH_1598)



His comment at 25:33 is a great summation.

If Gad's video actually opened I would have watched it.

It opened at last............ Gad told us he wanted to talk about the rape and murder of truth, and then went on to criticise liberal leaders who 'mocked' him.
Why do these buffoons take so long to tell us something solid? Not Gad, anyway.

[boatsnguitars]

.
So what evidence do you have for attributing social conditioning as reason for gender expression?

.

Not evidence, but here we go...
A friend of mine has 4 children. Three so far are transgender/non binary. (The 4th is 7-8 yrs old, so not being included even though the writing is on the wall). (They were all born as biological females by the way). One has gone from non-binary to being a boy and now back again to non-binary.

Being an odds guy, what are the odds that 3 out of 3 all have gender expression issues? This suggest that social conditioning may be at play, but I do not pretend to know, just considering the odds game.

What I'd want to know is how they were raised. It brings to mind the article on the gender-neutral parenting style that I posted towards the end of my last post. I think it would be reasonable to expect kids raised in that way to behave differently than kids raised with one type of gender role. My thinking is how would kids raised in a gender-neutral environment act out gendered behavior if no one teaches it to them? But the article mentions that such parenting styles have not been studied enough to draw conclusions on that matter.

But what also gets me thinking that being transgender is not a matter of nature, or at least not in all cases, is that the APA article I cited in post #3, says that people can be transgender for different reasons. Imagine the APA saying that people can be heterosexual or homosexual for different reasons? One person for this reason, another for that reason. I doubt you'd ever hear that since it is more established that sexual orientation is mainly a product of nature.

Could be social conditioning. Could be - as some have argued on this site - due to impurities in the water supply, air borne chemicals, or something more local to their area, or specific to their household. Some blame fluoride. Or it could be genetics. The fact seems to be they have decided that makes them happy and I would think we should celebrate their desire to be happy.

Freedom, right?

[brunumb]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #162]

Gad Saad was right on the money and you have not refuted anything he actually said relating to transgenderism. This is in the science section of the forum but all you have done is rely on emotional arguments rather than facts.

How about this from a very prominent trans woman, Blaire White.

[LittleNipper]

ALL CHOICES ARE A CHOICE. Smoking, drinking, taking a shower, selecting clothing, and having sex are all CHOICES. When and where one decides to do things are CHOICES. This isn't rocket science ---- and even that is a CHOICE...

Drinking is a choice. Agreed, but if one doesn't drink water, they die. Right?

So, are you claiming that everything is a choice, but that some choices are more critical to who were are as a person - because we didn't choose to rely on food and water... or do you think we do choose to be mortal and be human?

Certainly, you are a smart enough person to realize the discussion isn't about choosing which tie to wear, but who we find ourselves to be as human beings and whether of not we are attracted to a certain sex, or have a predisposition towards being a religious extremist, or drink alcohol, or gamble, etc.

It's very true that it isn't rocket science, and it's also true that you've reduced the discussion to something it's not. This is why I keep repeating that religionists are not good at logic. They are taught to believe that being incredibly simplistic and reductionary is getting to the truth of the matter when it is the opposite.

If you believe what you say do me a favor:

Choose to believe there is no God for a year, then you may choose to believe there isn't. Let's test your non-rocket science. Tell us how you fare.

Simply put, there are many things that become habitual through a initial trial. Smokers and drunkards are not the product of abstinence.
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world, to confound the wise. And God has chosen the weak things of the world, to confound things which are strong.

[oldbadger]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #162]

Gad Saad was right on the money and you have not refuted anything he actually said relating to transgenderism. This is in the science section of the forum but all you have done is rely on emotional arguments rather than facts.

Everything that you say is so cranked, brunumb. This is not the 'science section' but the 'science/religion' section, and I don't think that you are any kind of scientist.
What do/did you do for a living, by the way?

How about this from a very prominent trans woman, Blaire White.

When asked if she thought that all trans people are mentally ill she answered...'No, I don't....'

By the way, where did you dig up that video which shows Adam and Eve as white skinned people? They look like Bfrits from Sevenoaks!!
There's no science in you, brunumb. Just prejudices.

[Clownboat]

Readers, I suspect that oldbadger is pretending that we are no longer talking about the elderly grandma that uses the wrong pronouns that we have been talking about for many posts now.

You see?.... I thought, 'This post is just a wind- up, so no need to answer every point'.
And then, sure as can be, we can see that you were writing to everybody else!

Should I make more points for you to ignore or show you where you said what you claim you didn't say? Nah, I'll address the readers that can see what is taking place right in front of them.

Well then....you need to see who answers you, yes?

Not necessary when the case has already been made.
To further my point, the parts you left unaddressed just in the last post of mine were:

- You still fail to acknowledge that the old lady scenario is one where the old lady is using the wrong pronouns.
- I clarified the 'exceptions to every rule' that seemed to confuse you earlier. You failed to address it or acknowledge it.
- You accused me of quoting words from you that you never used, but you did. When I showed you your words and the posts you used them in, you failed to address them or even acknowledge your words.

And you protest that I'm beginning to have a discussion with the readers here in place of yourself!
What would you expect?

Copy/paste to save time: "Your position isn't consistent and is therefore hard to agree with."

I feel justified to now be addressing the class. You can acknowledge why or not acknowledge why, but I trust our readers understand what is taking place.

[Clownboat]

ALL CHOICES ARE A CHOICE. Smoking, drinking, taking a shower, selecting clothing, and having sex are all CHOICES. When and where one decides to do things are CHOICES. This isn't rocket science ---- and even that is a CHOICE...

Who are you debating? Who here claimed that your list of choices are not choices?

To try to bring you back to the topic...
I did not choose to be attracted to females and I cannot choose to be attracted to men, or my biological sisters. Neither are choices for me no matter how much pretend you play.

If you are attracted to the same sex, you are homosexual. What you cannot do is pretend that all other humans are like you, with having this ability that you do to choose to be attracted to the same sex. Bottom line, not everyone is homosexual and not everyone can choose to be attracted to their sisters (or mother or same those of the same sex), no matter how much you protest or put it in caps.

Projection is a type of defense mechanism or means of coping. People may use defense mechanisms and unconscious mental strategies to cope with stressful or anxiety-provoking thoughts and experiences. When someone unconsciously attributes their thoughts, feelings, or behaviors to another person, they are projecting.

[Clownboat]

Simply put, there are many things that become habitual through a initial trial. Smokers and drunkards are not the product of abstinence.

Come on man! Who are you debating?
Who here claimed that smokers and drunkards are the product of abstinence?
If you believe you have a point to make, please just make it.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world, to confound the wise. And God has chosen the weak things of the world, to confound things which are strong.

Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
If a fool can figure it out, what is your excuse?

[Purple Knight]

The fact seems to be they have decided that makes them happy and I would think we should celebrate their desire to be happy.

Freedom, right?

This is a very good way to look at it. Imagine if we took this stance as a society instead of thinking that being gay or trans is something that would be evil if it actually was a choice but the rest of us have to put up with because they were born that way and can't help it.

Imagine if the macho guy who says, "I would never be friends with a woman. Women are petty and nasty and the only reason I would be around one is because I am attracted to it," could just take a fluoride pill and become gay. He'd be much, much happier. Acknowledging it is a choice opens up more potential avenues for people to be happy.

The tradeoff, though, is that choices about sexuality then carry the same exact obligation that people accept and celebrate them as nonsexual choices: Those choices first have to not hurt anybody and not force anybody to do something they don't like. For nonsexual choices, this is a given. For sexual choices it seems to be an unreasonable ask. That's why anyone who is going to demand that people just suck it up if they're hurt by it, or demand that others be forced to do what they don't want to do to accommodate the choices, is ultimately better off peddling, "No, you just have to accept it; they can't help it."

This is my point about the werewolf thing. Having second-class citizens is not something a first-class society does, so even if werewolves create a bunch of extra violence, placing extra restrictions on them for being werewolves might not be necessarily unfair, but it will make society into a classist dystopia. An equal society must simply absorb the fallout from whatever people genuinely can't help. But it's under no obligation to suck it up when people can help it, which is why it's so very important whether they can help it or not.