Age of the earth?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Glee
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Age of the earth?

Post #1

Post by Glee »

Yay new thread. Also, another one about the age of the earth :o
Looking over the results of other threads, it seems that the defining point of the argument for both sides is the age of the earth. Sort of a global flood verses millions of years sediment buildup.

If the Earth is proven to be millions of years old, and the sediment has built up over time, then the fossils found would seem to imply that evolution happened, as they seem to be structured in an order of complexity, development over time, etc.

If the Earth is only thousands of years old, then fossil evidence is irrelevant because the flood was the sole creator of most of the fossils, and they were deposited in their consecutive layers due to how long they would float for/how easily they mixed with the liquidfied layers of the ground during the flood.

Without fossil evidence, and without proof that the earth has had millions of years of existance, evolution cannot be proven. If the earth is in fact millions of years old, and the fossil record is indeed correct, then creationism as it currently stands would be invalidated as well.

SO: Is there a single piece of evidence that comprehensively proves that a global flood happened / did not happen? Is there a lay-man, easy to identify, unrefutable piece of evidence that can be used to show the age of the earth?


I always thought that underground salt deposits were a great proof of a old age earth. Salt was the leftover from an evaporated sea, which was then covered with subsequent layers of sediments, etc.

Case in point: the Michigan Basin Salt mines. See http://www.saltinstitute.org/mich-1.html for some fairly straightforward pictures about how the michigan salt mines were supposedly formed, and how many layers of sediments are layered on top of it. Note the size, shapes and locations. (And http://www.beg.utexas.edu/indassoc/agl/agl_if.html for some nifty animations of salt in general)

It is interesting to note that there are 6 different layers of salt in the area, meaning at 6 different times through history there inland seas at this location, each of which subsequently evaporated.

The creationist answer to salt deposits, at least by Walt Brown ( http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... view7.html ) also involves evaporation, however, only part of the sea is evaporated and the salt is precipatated due to the water becoming superstaurated. This "thick pasty" precipetate is then buried under heavier sediments(!) during the flood.

I don't see how this could lead to multiple layers of salt forming, nor why the salt precipatate would even form a layer, much less 6 differernt ones in this particular area alone, whilst the majority of other areas have no salt deposits at all. A global flood I would have thought using this model would no doubt have had a fairly even distribution of salt deposits.

The locations of salt deposits are a telling factor that it was not laid down in a global flood - as (from the first link) clearly shows:
Image

Actually, looking back at that, im not sure if its lay-man enough. Any other simple irrefutable examples for/against?

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Jose
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Post #2

Post by Jose »

Glee wrote:Without fossil evidence, and without proof that the earth has had millions of years of existance, evolution cannot be proven.
Actually, there's lots of evidence that pretty much forces us to accept evolution, independently of fossils or the age of the earth. But that's not the point of the thread....

My favorite was presented by a coal miner with no training in science. He noted that one of the dangers in coal mines is the tree trunks that stand vertically, and that sometimes crash down from the tops of tunnels that were dug underneath them. As long as you're only digging one tunnel, you can buy the explanation that the trees were killed by Noah's Flood.

The fact is, however, that there are many layers with exactly this kind of phenomenon, one on top of the other. OK....if one forest was killed by a flood, then there must have been time for the next forest to grow on top of the flood debris. Then that forest was killed by a flood, and there was time for another forest to grow. Then that one was killed.

As he put it, the bible talks about only one flood that killed everything. It doesn't talk about multiple floods, with enough time in between to grow a forest of giant trees. It kinda makes you wonder if, just maybe, the account in the bible is a story, just like the Catholic church says it is.

Now, I realize that this doesn't speak to the age of the earth. However, it argues pretty strongly that Genesis is not an accurate scientific and historical account of the history of the earth. If the account itself wasn't intended to be a scientific treatise, then there's no reason to believe Bishop Ussher's attempt to assign dates to the events in that story. There's no reason to believe, or even to imagine, that the earth is only a few thousand years old.

Now, this miner was raised as a Christian, with complete faith in scripture. He had no one pushing him to believe one way or another. He simply went into the earth and observed what's there. What's there simply is not compatible with a young earth and a single world-wide flood.
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juliod
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Post #3

Post by juliod »

For me, the slam-dunk disproof of the flood is the insufficiency of water to cover the earth above the top of Everest. Can't happen, didn't happen.

Creationists try to get around this with arguments, but they are trapped into going from one impossibilty to another, and then another, etc.

DanZ

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QED
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Post #4

Post by QED »

Jose wrote:My favorite was presented by a coal miner with no training in science. He noted that one of the dangers in coal mines is the tree trunks that stand vertically, and that sometimes crash down from the tops of tunnels that were dug underneath them.
That's a good example but in the interests of open-minded enquiry how come a tree trunk can be found more or less intact amid a compacted coal seam?

According to this story we have another mining engineer who is convinced that it speaks for a global flood. I should point out that despite his reported education he makes a schoolboy error in citing the second law of thermodynamics as being at odds with evolution.

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Chimp
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Post #5

Post by Chimp »

Chimp wrote:I have a flood related question...

Where did the water come from?

It is estimated that the melting of the polar ice caps would account
for an approximate 68m (223ft.) rise in sea level. This is a far cry from the
height of even the smallest mountain. Where did the extra water come from
to flood the earth? What I'm saying is there isn't enough water on the earth
to cover the earth.
This is from this thread...

http://www.debatingchristianity.com/for ... 6000#36000

This is in support of Juliod's observation.

You could look to the stars for more evidence pointing to an ancient earth...
The fact that you can see them...light travels at 186,282.4 miles/sec
There are many stellar bodies that exceed 10,000 light years, in fact,
GRB 050904 (a recently observed star burst) is about 13 billion light-years
from Earth.

EDIT TO FIX QUOTE BLOCK... :/

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Jose
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Post #6

Post by Jose »

QED wrote:
Jose wrote:My favorite was presented by a coal miner with no training in science. He noted that one of the dangers in coal mines is the tree trunks that stand vertically, and that sometimes crash down from the tops of tunnels that were dug underneath them.
That's a good example but in the interests of open-minded enquiry how come a tree trunk can be found more or less intact amid a compacted coal seam?

According to this story we have another mining engineer who is convinced that it speaks for a global flood. I should point out that despite his reported education he makes a schoolboy error in citing the second law of thermodynamics as being at odds with evolution.
Ah, yes--our friend the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Y'know, it's interesting about that. The logic used to "prove" that evolution couldn't happen also proves that people can't exist, either. We take in food, chew it up, and create fairly serious disorder from it. Then, by gum, we turn it into order again! That's impossible! Well, it would be if there were no source of energy to make it possible.

Now, as for those tree trunks, I thought about specifying "short stumps of tree trunks," but I worried that the extra qualifiers would make the sentence too convoluted. Picture mere tree stumps only a few feet tall. they're still pretty darned heavy, and would squish you pretty nicely if they dropped out of the ceiling onto you.

Indeed, there are many presentations that purport to show that a Flood did, indeed, cause what we see. In that vein, we have our miner's acceptance of the Flood story for one drowned forest. No problem. The tricky bit is that there are multiple drowned forests, one above the other. This provides a little bit of counter-evidence. The Flood could explain one of these forests, but which one? And what would account for the others?

Even if we quibble about the methods of age-dating, we are still left with quandaries like this one. Whether this particular coal bed is 150 million years old or 4000 years old, it still has too many forests on top of each other to be explained by The Flood.
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Glee
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Post #7

Post by Glee »

Trees in the strata seem like a valid contender as well. I'm trying to find a nice picture of different layers of trees on top of each other, but all i can find atm is something like:
Image
1. Underclay, with rootlets of Stigmaria, resting on gray shale, with two thin coaly seams.
2. Gray sandstone, with erect trees, Calamites, and other stems: 9 feet.
3. Coal, with erect tree on its surface: 6 inches.
4. Underclay, with Stigmaria rootlets.
(a) Calamites. (c) Stigmaria roots.
(b) Stem of plant undetermined. (d) Erect trunk, 9 feet high.

Which is actually taken from a creationist site here. They attempt to answer in creationist terms how it comes about, however as it addresses each point individually if the theories were joined together it seems to become nonsense - The horizontal shear theory seems quite problematic once you factor in the other roots and layers in the system - they wouldn't have been able to grow in a global flood. Also, the water levels would have been much higher, and there would have had to have been tons of sediments on top of the tree anyway. Yet everything is neatly sheared into layers...
Image
I dont think trees are meant to break like that...

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Post #8

Post by juliod »

Trees in the strata seem like a valid contender as well.
Well, if it is trees you want, then dendrochronology is another slam-dunk against the flood. The chronology goes back with continuity to the period beyond the "flood". No sign of it.

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Glee
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Post #9

Post by Glee »

About that dendrochoronology, from Radiometric Dating, A Christian Perspective
The carbon-14 dates have been carefully cross-checked with non-radiometric age indicators. For example growth rings in trees, if counted carefully, are a reliable way to determine the age of a tree. Each growth ring only collects carbon from the air and nutrients during the year it is made. To calibrate carbon-14, one can analyze carbon from the center several rings of a tree, and then count the rings inward from the living portion to determine the actual age. This has been done for the "Methuselah of trees", the bristlecone pine trees, which grow very slowly and live up to 6,000 years. Scientists have extended this calibration even further. These trees grow in a very dry region near the California-Nevada border. Dead trees in this dry climate take many thousands of years to decay. Growth ring patterns based on wet and dry years can be correlated between living and long dead trees, extending the continuous ring count back to 11,800 years ago. "Floating" records, which are not tied to the present time, exist farther back than this, but their ages are not known with absolute certainty. An effort is presently underway to bridge the gaps so as to have a reliable, continuous record significantly farther back in time. The study of tree rings and the ages they give is called "dendrochronology".

Tree rings do not provide continuous chronologies beyond 11,800 years ago because a rather abrupt change in climate took place at that time, which was the end of the last ice age. During the ice age, long-lived trees grew in different areas than they do now. There are many indicators, some to be mentioned below, that show exactly how the climate changed at the end of the last ice age. It is difficult to find continuous tree ring records through this period of rapid climate change. Dendrochronology will probably eventually find reliable tree records that bridge this time period, but in the meantime, the carbon-14 ages have been calibrated farther back in time by other means.
With a nice little graph associated with it:
Image
Its chock full of fairly easy to understand dating methods, and nice little graphs and illustrations, while at the same time does give enough serious information to be valuable as a resource. It even has refutations to supposeded critisisms of the dating techniques.

To spoil the ending for those of whom can't be bothered reading it (I would, it is very enlightening...)
Rightly Handling the Word of Truth

As Christians it is of great importance that we understand God's word correctly. Yet from the middle ages up until the 1700s people insisted that the Bible taught that the Earth, not the Sun, was the center of the solar system. It wasn't that people just thought it had to be that way; they actually quoted scriptures: "The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved" (Psalm 104:5), or "the sun stood still" (Joshua 10:13; why should it say the sun stood still if it is the Earth's rotation that causes day and night?), and many other passages. I am afraid the debate over the age of the Earth has many similarities. But I am optimistic. Today there are many Christians who accept the reliability of geologic dating, but do not compromise the spiritual and historical inerrancy of God's word. While a full discussion of Genesis 1 is not given here, references are given below to a few books that deal with that issue.

As scientists, we deal daily with what God has revealed about Himself through the created universe. The psalmist marveled at how God, Creator of the universe, could care about humans: "When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, what is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that You care for him?" (Psalm 8:3-4). Near the beginning of the twenty-first century we can marvel all the more, knowing how vast the universe is, how ancient are the rocks and hills, and how carefully our environment has been designed. Truly God is more awesome than we can imagine!
(Suprisingly, God is only mentioned 19 times-sometimes in references. Designer is mentioned 3 times and intelligent once. Out of a 18,000 word document.)

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Post #10

Post by juliod »

Tree rings do not provide continuous chronologies beyond 11,800 years ago because a rather abrupt change in climate took place at that time, which was the end of the last ice age.
The key point, and easy for the lay person to understand, is that if a date like 11,800 PB even exists then the biblical chronology is wrong. The earliest possible date for a creationist is about 6004 BP. Of course, tree rings go back to this date, possibly before, and there is no sign of the flood. It's not possible for desert pine trees to have survived the flood without being, well... flooded.

Not possible. Couldn't happen. Didn't happen.

Are there any actual creationists in the forum?

DanZ

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