Age of the earth?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Glee
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Age of the earth?

Post #1

Post by Glee »

Yay new thread. Also, another one about the age of the earth :o
Looking over the results of other threads, it seems that the defining point of the argument for both sides is the age of the earth. Sort of a global flood verses millions of years sediment buildup.

If the Earth is proven to be millions of years old, and the sediment has built up over time, then the fossils found would seem to imply that evolution happened, as they seem to be structured in an order of complexity, development over time, etc.

If the Earth is only thousands of years old, then fossil evidence is irrelevant because the flood was the sole creator of most of the fossils, and they were deposited in their consecutive layers due to how long they would float for/how easily they mixed with the liquidfied layers of the ground during the flood.

Without fossil evidence, and without proof that the earth has had millions of years of existance, evolution cannot be proven. If the earth is in fact millions of years old, and the fossil record is indeed correct, then creationism as it currently stands would be invalidated as well.

SO: Is there a single piece of evidence that comprehensively proves that a global flood happened / did not happen? Is there a lay-man, easy to identify, unrefutable piece of evidence that can be used to show the age of the earth?


I always thought that underground salt deposits were a great proof of a old age earth. Salt was the leftover from an evaporated sea, which was then covered with subsequent layers of sediments, etc.

Case in point: the Michigan Basin Salt mines. See http://www.saltinstitute.org/mich-1.html for some fairly straightforward pictures about how the michigan salt mines were supposedly formed, and how many layers of sediments are layered on top of it. Note the size, shapes and locations. (And http://www.beg.utexas.edu/indassoc/agl/agl_if.html for some nifty animations of salt in general)

It is interesting to note that there are 6 different layers of salt in the area, meaning at 6 different times through history there inland seas at this location, each of which subsequently evaporated.

The creationist answer to salt deposits, at least by Walt Brown ( http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... view7.html ) also involves evaporation, however, only part of the sea is evaporated and the salt is precipatated due to the water becoming superstaurated. This "thick pasty" precipetate is then buried under heavier sediments(!) during the flood.

I don't see how this could lead to multiple layers of salt forming, nor why the salt precipatate would even form a layer, much less 6 differernt ones in this particular area alone, whilst the majority of other areas have no salt deposits at all. A global flood I would have thought using this model would no doubt have had a fairly even distribution of salt deposits.

The locations of salt deposits are a telling factor that it was not laid down in a global flood - as (from the first link) clearly shows:
Image

Actually, looking back at that, im not sure if its lay-man enough. Any other simple irrefutable examples for/against?

Woody
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Post #51

Post by Woody »

Well now you're just being insulting. Great moderating ! :whistle:

Do you, being an atheist, also insult Christians for posting bible quotes here on this website paritally named after their flavor? #-o

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McCulloch
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Post #52

Post by McCulloch »

Woody wrote:Well now you're just being insulting. Great moderating ! :whistle:
I am sorry that you feel insulted by my comments. When I said, "Except for the fact that you have not been able to show that anything in the UB account is information.", I was simply pointing out (admittedly somewhat abruptly) that I have still not seen any evidence to validate the Urantia Book as a source of facts.
Woody wrote:Do you, being an atheist, also insult Christians for posting bible quotes here on this website paritally named after their flavor? #-o
Yes, I do and continue to challenge the factual basis of their holy books.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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The truth will make you free.
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Jose
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Post #53

Post by Jose »

If I may interject a bit here, and perhaps offer a moderator's nudge, I humbly suggest that no book of Revealed Wisdom is of any help whatsoever in solving the problem of this thread. The question is "what is the age of the earth?" The question is not "what do different compendia of received wisdom say the age of the earth is?" Let's refer disucssions of the Urantia Book to the UB thread, shall we? Let's also refer discussions of Biblical age-of-the-earth issues to their relevant threads.

The relevant issue here is data. If data happens to match statements in some book or other, then it's fair to quote that bit of that book after presenting the data. But, the book does not substitute for data.

Now, as I look through the last few pages of posts, I see some questioning of specific dating methods and some questioning of the dates of specific samples. A brief peek at the GSSP chart (international consensus on the definitions and ages of geolotical strata) will make it evident that internationally, many different methods are used--and agreed upon--for determining the ages of rocks. There are a number of different methods here. They turn out to agree. This, alone, gets us well beyond Oct. 26, 4004 BC.

If you would care to check the USGS publication DDS14 (digital data series 14), you will find roughly half of the radiometric dates for the US (as of the time the list was compiled). A great many more have been produced since then, and a number of new methods have been devised. DDS14's small sample turns out to be something like 23,000 measurements--and those may be, for all I know, just the ones that were in the public domain at that time. In the last decade or so, many oil companies have donated their core samples to various university geology libraries, and made their core data accessible. In a recent study that I was looking at, with respect to the northeast quadrant of Montana, the sample size was 8000 cores for that part of Montana alone. I suspect that a mere 23,000 measurements is a serious under-estimate.

The point of this is that there's one heckuvalot of data. It all seems to be consistent, in agreement, and highly reproducible.

This sort of stuff, it seems to me, is data. If there is one or another book of revealed wisdom that happens to match the data, then this might be a tidbit of information that the proponents of that book will like--because it would say that for that bit of information, their book is right. But let's start with the data, rather than with the books, shall we?
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Cathar1950
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Post #54

Post by Cathar1950 »

I am very interested in the data. If I could come back as a geologist I would or a lumber yard.
It is nice to see it fit something the UB said as much as if Nostradamus
or something like that. Maybe the Hopi. One of the things you always hear is the Bible was proven right. When they get one thing right. Or even 1000 things right. This does not prove the bible especially on supernatural claims, but it is nice to know and there maybe more clues or ideas will be discovered in the process. Imagination is a powerful tool.
I caught bits of a show on tv and some id expert was saying that some rock could only be created so many years ago with under instant heat or something . I wish I could remember. But any way my point is even if one rock shows an anomaly and all the others show the same age which do you say is wrong?

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