Can you defend biblical morality/relevance? Adam and Eve

[Gone Apostate]

I'm new to this forum so i apologize if this is an exhausted topic. I would really like to see what everyone has to say about this. I know some of the standard responses but I'm sure that personal approaches to this topic will add much more to the discussion as I have been exposed to it.

How does our understandings of the stories/traditions of our faith color the way we view, and act in, the world today?

If this is a topic that generates some discussion I would like to follow it up with similar ones but for now why don't we just start at the beginning, at least the beginning of the most commonly held religious beliefs - the creation story, from the Old Testament. This is a story shared by Muslims, Jews and Christians – who together make up over 51% of the religious traditions in the world and about 85% of those in America.

According to a 2010 Gallup poll 40% of Americans believe that man was created in his present form, by God no more than 10,000 years ago. This is down from 55% in 2006 (according to a CBS poll)
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This is more than a theological discussion. It’s a very hot political one as well. There are still stickers in text books across the country, warning that evolution is ‘just a theory’. There is a renewed push in several states to legislate that evolution be taught with more than the usual disclaimers. 60% of biology teachers are afraid to teach the theory and spend little time on it, if at all. 13 percent of the teachers said they "explicitly advocate creationism or intelligent design…�

So here some questions to consider. I would really like to hear people’s answers to some of these however, if they don’t interest you but the topic does, forget them, just share your thoughts. Please and thank you!

1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?
5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?
7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?

My viewpoint:
I consider it a creation myth on historical par with those of every other faith. I also think there is some seriously questionable morality on the part of the character of God in this story as well. I absolutely don't think that it should be a curriculum topic in science classes, either as young earth creation theory or as intelligent design. The only place I think it has a place it schools would be in a literature or comparative religion class, the latter being one I wish we had as standard curriculum in the US, like they do in the UK.

Thank you for reading and please leave a comment.

Stats:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... /2122.html
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_public.htm
Teaching the controversy:
http://pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethi ... State.aspx
http://www.antievolution.org/cs/ncse_20110121
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41313808/ns ... e-science/

[Gone Apostate]

I liked everything you had to say. I find it so refreshing that to hear so many moderates address this question. It gives me hope because it seems (much like in politics) the louder voices tend to also be the more extreme opinions and so I hear so much of the other camp I really appreciate a reminder that there ARE more moderate views out there. The bit about "bad DNA" was totally new to me, so thanks for that!

Here's a quick follow up in the interest of understanding your opinion better:

(4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?

Nothing. IMO, God designed the universe to run on natural law

So is yours more of a kind of Christian/diest sort of persuasion? Do you think God set the whole thing in motion to run on natural law and then stay out of it or are you saying that the story of Adam and eve does something to establish that "God designed the universe to run on natural law" or am I missing the point entirely?

Thanks again engaging in the first place and for broadening my understanding of the different interpretations out there.

[Choir Loft]

1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?
5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?
7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?

[1]
That evolution is spoken of as a 'theory', but accepted as fact by nearly everyone speaks more loudly of academic repression than of the scientific method.

In Ben Stein's documentary EXPELLED: NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED, a strong case is made for an academic 'wall of prejudice' with regard to metaphysics in general and evolution in particular. If you haven't seen it, I recommend the experience.

Oddly, instead of examining the truth about evolution the academic gates of reason have been forcably closed upon those who question the idea. Truth isn't wanted or needed. This is America and our minds are made up. Do not confuse us with logic or anything like a search for scientific truth.

[2] Are there lessons to be learned from Adam & Eve? Yes, but America is an amoral society and we don't give a rat's nose about morality.

[3] Original sin, is it real? The Bible says so, but in actual fact some of us are better than others.

[4] It IS possible to make peace with God regardless of how one was born. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a clue.

[5-7] There are a ton of inferences of the impact of the Bible story upon society. The problem with today's American culture is that it is intensely self-absorbed. That means that it's juvenile intellect is incapable of digesting ANY advanced ideology (religious or otherwise) which takes more than 30 seconds to read or five minutes to implement. American society is brain dead and spiritually bankrupt.

"To the frivolous, Christianity is certainly not glad tidings, for it wishes first of all to make them serious."
- Soren Kierkegaard

[Gone Apostate]

First and foremost, thank you for your comments. I was hoping that I would get to address some of the points that you bring up and was pleasantly surprised, but also a little disappointed when it looked like I was going to miss out on the opportunity.

That evolution is spoken of as a 'theory', but accepted as fact by nearly everyone speaks more loudly of academic repression than of the scientific method.

In Ben Stein's documentary EXPELLED: NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED, a strong case is made for an academic 'wall of prejudice' with regard to metaphysics in general and evolution in particular. If you haven't seen it, I recommend the experience.

Oddly, instead of examining the truth about evolution the academic gates of reason have been forcably closed upon those who question the idea. Truth isn't wanted or needed. This is America and our minds are made up. Do not confuse us with logic or anything like a search for scientific truth.

Evolution is a theory, in the same way that gravity and electromagnetism are theories, with one big exception. We can actually see and understand more of the mechanisms of evolution at work. With gravity and electricity we only see and measure the results of the forces we still don't fully understand.

I have seen Ben Stein's ..ahem...work. I am familiar with his premise. I readily admit that those in the scientific community are not immune to the influence of conformational bias, nor are they immune to intellectual pride BUT the scientific method is the most fundamentally effective means of mitigating those very influences. There is no controversy among scientists on this point, even among the several of them that are Christians there is a vast majority of support for the theory of evolution, not because they refuse to accept it might be wrong, but because it is one of the most well supported and substantiated pieces of human knowledge that we have - period. It has been attacked by many who don't like, but not by many that are willing to try and understand it. I see that this first topic alone is a source of much debate and I usually hate the way it gets debated and I would love to take a crack at it if you are willing to keep going - but we should probably start another thread in a different forum. I lay down the gauntlet if you wish to pick it up feel free to start it off and post the link here so others may find it too.

[2] Are there lessons to be learned from Adam & Eve? Yes, but America is an amoral society and we don't give a rat's nose about morality.

Well how about you share some of them anyway, maybe you will reach one of us. Can you point to some specific verses in the bible account and tell us what the lesson it, or use some to support an overall theme that has a moral value to teach?

[3] Original sin, is it real? The Bible says so, but in actual fact some of us are better than others.

Again please be more specific. I was referring to the idea that we are all born of sin and need to be redeemed even as infants. It seems you prescribe to the idea that we are all born sinners but not “born in sin� is that true?

I also take some issue with statement “some of us are better than others.� I would contend that we all make good and bad choices but statements like that insinuate intrinsic value of one person OVER another. I am better than you, vs. this is a better choice. Christians, even “true� Christians are not “better people� than anyone else hopefully they live their lives with compassion but so do many others with different beliefs or none at all.

[4] It IS possible to make peace with God regardless of how one was born. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a clue.

Maybe I was wrong.. it sounds here you ARE saying some people are born better than others but the atonement will apply to the less valiant ones too?

[5-7] There are a ton of inferences of the impact of the Bible story upon society. The problem with today's American culture is that it is intensely self-absorbed. That means that it's juvenile intellect is incapable of digesting ANY advanced ideology (religious or otherwise) which takes more than 30 seconds to read or five minutes to implement. American society is brain dead and spiritually bankrupt.

Once again please be specific (verse references help). I promise I will try to understand your higher level ideology, if it’s beyond me I will apologize for wasting your time. I think there are PLENTY of juvenile people in this country but to say we are, as a nation, incapable of digesting ANY subtle, sophisticated, or complex concepts, ethics, etc. (advanced ideologies?)

Thank you for commenting and participating I look forward to your further expansions on these topics.

[Goat]

[1]
That evolution is spoken of as a 'theory', but accepted as fact by nearly everyone speaks more loudly of academic repression than of the scientific method.

This statement shows a very poor understanding about what a 'scientific theory' is. In science, a 'theory' is as good as it gets. It is a model of explanation of the data that can be tested, but has not been falsified. It makes predictive statements that can be tested.

There is the fact of evolution (species change over time), and the thenere is the theory of evolution >> How and why that occurs.

In Ben Stein's documentary EXPELLED: NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED, a strong case is made for an academic 'wall of prejudice' with regard to metaphysics in general and evolution in particular. If you haven't seen it, I recommend the experience.

Expelled was not a documentary, it was a propaganda piece by anti-evolutionary religious groups. It was full of logical fallacies, appeals to emotion,and right out lies.

If you haven't seen it, I would check out http://www.expelledexposed.com/ for understanding it's fallacies and lies before you actually go waste money to see it.

[Choir Loft]

I have seen Ben Stein's ..ahem...work. I am familiar with his premise. I readily admit that those in the scientific community are not immune to the influence of conformational bias, nor are they immune to intellectual pride BUT the scientific method is the most fundamentally effective means of mitigating those very influences. There is no controversy among scientists on this point, even among the several of them that are Christians there is a vast majority of support for the theory of evolution, not because they refuse to accept it might be wrong, but because it is one of the most well supported and substantiated pieces of human knowledge that we have - period. .

Ben Stein's work is a documentary and is subjective in content. The viewer is free to accept it or not according to his preconceptions - as you have confessed.

As I said in my earlier post, the scientific method with regard to evolutionary theory has been corrupted. There is massive and ideological bias AGAINST any theory (or exploration of theory) which controverts evolution. I have seen this type of thing in operation personally and can testify to it as a witness. I didn't need Stein's movie to convince me.

In fact THERE IS controversy among educators and scientists. The primary factor in the acceptance of evolutionary theory is tenure, not science. The whole thing is political in nature because atheistic theory is based on it. Remove evolutionary theory as a basis of atheist ideology and a major argumentative pillar supporting modern atheism is destroyed. (Notice I wrote 'modern'. There are other substantive arguments to support atheism, but due to the withering of the cognitive processes modern folk don't use them.)

The whole thing is political and has nothing whatsoever to do with science. Additional proof is in the violence of the argument for and against it. If it were pure science everybody would be bored with it and find something else to debate.

Are there lessons to be learned from Adam & Eve? Yes, but America is an amoral society and we don't give a rat's nose about morality.

Well how about you share some of them anyway, maybe you will reach one of us. Can you point to some specific verses in the bible account and tell us what the lesson it, or use some to support an overall theme that has a moral value to teach?
.[/quote]

Math 13:54-58 relates the story of Jesus' problem with unbelief in his home territory. The last verse says that Jesus could not perform many miracles there "because of their unbelief". The Lord could have performed miracles, but it wouldn't have mattered to anybody. The 'point' to performing miracles or to quoting scripture or any other source is to get the reader to consider an argument or teaching. This is an indirect way of saying that America's amoral tendency cannot be shaken or turned. People can only be warned.

I also take some issue with statement “some of us are better than others.� I would contend that we all make good and bad choices but statements like that insinuate intrinsic value of one person OVER another.
* * *
Maybe I was wrong.. it sounds here you ARE saying some people are born better than others but the atonement will apply to the less valiant ones too?

It's called sarcasm.

American amorality does not recognize a level playing field with regard to the concept of sin. That's all that 'original sin' means. In point of fact, the lack of morality does not recognize sin at all, merely that some people are more or less polite than others......and even good manners are scoffed at sometimes.

"The problem with today's American culture is that it is intensely self-absorbed. That means that it's juvenile intellect is incapable of digesting ANY advanced ideology (religious or otherwise) which takes more than 30 seconds to read or five minutes to implement. American society is brain dead and spiritually bankrupt. "

Once again please be specific (verse references help). I promise I will try to understand your higher level ideology, if it’s beyond me I will apologize for wasting your time. I think there are PLENTY of juvenile people in this country but to say we are, as a nation, incapable of digesting ANY subtle, sophisticated, or complex concepts, ethics, etc. (advanced ideologies?)
.

The juvenile mentality does not equate to calendar age. We all know people who are entirely childish, self-centered and willful who have celebrated many decades of birthdays.

There are a number of articles, surveys, and scholarly statements (not to mention political pundits' remarks) regarding the cognitive disability of American adults. It is an axiom that the adult attention span is approximately 30 seconds. TV and radio ads are held within that limit for that very reason. Magazine ads and articles are crafted to a certain length, color and type. Even short stories (and I've written a few) are held to a limit of 2500 words by publishers because they fear they'll lose their readers' attention if there are more words. The same is true for the length of novels both electronic and printed.

The twin factors of short attention span and undeveloped cognitive ability means that Americans have lost the ability to process complex ideological systems OF ANY KIND. The result is a decline in religion and the effectiveness of the American political process. Both require systematic education and the ability to process and interpret a great deal of information.

Ever watch Jay Leno's Tonight Show? Occasionally he does a 'man on the street' question series. Jay will ask easy questions about historical persons or current events. Unless the answer has something to do with a person's belly, their sex life or popular celebrities they usually cannot answer correctly.

America is brain dead and spiritually bankrupt.

[Goat]

I have seen Ben Stein's ..ahem...work. I am familiar with his premise. I readily admit that those in the scientific community are not immune to the influence of conformational bias, nor are they immune to intellectual pride BUT the scientific method is the most fundamentally effective means of mitigating those very influences. There is no controversy among scientists on this point, even among the several of them that are Christians there is a vast majority of support for the theory of evolution, not because they refuse to accept it might be wrong, but because it is one of the most well supported and substantiated pieces of human knowledge that we have - period. .

Ben Stein's work is a documentary and is subjective in content. The viewer is free to accept it or not according to his preconceptions - as you have confessed.

No, it is not documentary. To be a documentary, it has to have facts. It, rather has insinuations, mis statements and out right lies. I would say it's a propaganda piece, poorly done, not a documentary.

As I said in my earlier post, the scientific method with regard to evolutionary theory has been corrupted. There is massive and ideological bias AGAINST any theory (or exploration of theory) which controverts evolution. I have seen this type of thing in operation personally and can testify to it as a witness. I didn't need Stein's movie to convince me.

Since you misused the term theory when ti comes to science, forgive me if I am totally skeptical about your judgment about the scientific method.

I am sorry, but anybody who thinks that the movie 'expelled' reflects reality what so ever has a high level of crediblity to recover.

In fact THERE IS controversy among educators and scientists. The primary factor in the acceptance of evolutionary theory is tenure, not science. The whole thing is political in nature because atheistic theory is based on it. Remove evolutionary theory as a basis of atheist ideology and a major argumentative pillar supporting modern atheism is destroyed. (Notice I wrote 'modern'. There are other substantive arguments to support atheism, but due to the withering of the cognitive processes modern folk don't use them.)

The one place there is NO controversy is among biologists, or educators with a high level of education. The 'controversy' is manufactured by religious fanatics.
The whole thing is political and has nothing whatsoever to do with science.

Additional proof is in the violence of the argument for and against it. If it were pure science everybody would be bored with it and find something else to debate.

I find that the arguments against are from religious organizations that misrepresent that evidence.. If you look at the 'wedge document' from teh discovery institute, your claims show that is the 'political' process they tend.. .. 'teach the controversy' .. but in the scientific community that deals with biology, there is no controversy.

[Choir Loft]

"That evolution is spoken of as a 'theory', but accepted as fact by nearly everyone speaks more loudly of academic repression than of the scientific method."

This statement shows a very poor understanding about what a 'scientific theory' is. In science, a 'theory' is as good as it gets. It is a model of explanation of the data that can be tested, but has not been falsified. It makes predictive statements that can be tested.

Definition of scientific fact or theory is not my intent. Your rebuttal fails to acknowledge my central point, WHICH IS, that the core issue is political not scientific.

Expelled was not a documentary, it was a propaganda piece by anti-evolutionary religious groups. It was full of logical fallacies, appeals to emotion,and right out lies.

Your are entitled to your opinion, however inaccurate and biased it may be.
I quoted the Stein piece because I've seen that sort of political pressure being employed. Seen it personally.

Again my point is that the issue is political, not scientific. The truth in this lies in the endless rhetoric pro and con as well as the endless baseless accusations and assertions that are made.

NO ONE is interested in fact, scientific or otherwise. The real point here is that evolutionary theory is a pillar of modern atheistic ideology. Remove that pillar and a whole lot of folks will have to do something they haven't had to do in a long time; THINK.

[ConiectoErgoSum]

Ooh... a thread derailed in favor of a heated debate on impractical concepts. Count me in!

[Gone Apostate]

The twin factors of short attention span and undeveloped cognitive ability means that Americans have lost the ability to process complex ideological systems OF ANY KIND. The result is a decline in religion and the effectiveness of the American political process. Both require systematic education and the ability to process and interpret a great deal of information.

Ever watch Jay Leno's Tonight Show? Occasionally he does a 'man on the street' question series. Jay will ask easy questions about historical persons or current events. Unless the answer has something to do with a person's belly, their sex life or popular celebrities they usually cannot answer correctly.

America is brain dead and spiritually bankrupt.

I'm going to go ahead and ignore that misinformation about evolution and again recommend that if you really want to work through that one, we do it in the right forum. It should be it's own discussion. Believe me it's one I would love to have, just let me know.

In the meantime...

Here's how I would sum up what you are saying: You aren't going to try and explain what the moral lessons from the scriptural account of Adam and Eve are because you think that it would be a waste of your time to try. You assume that such advanced concepts or spiritual sensitivities will beyond us all here?

I won't get to wrapped around the axle on that but it does make me wonder. Why are you involved in a debate forum if you don't want to debate. If you are just going to dismiss those that disagree with you, what precisely is your goal here?

[Elias Jezebelsbane]

My viewpoint:
I consider it a creation myth on historical par with those of every other faith. I also think there is some seriously questionable morality on the part of the character of God in this story as well. I absolutely don't think that it should be a curriculum topic in science classes, either as young earth creation theory or as intelligent design. The only place I think it has a place it schools would be in a literature or comparative religion class, the latter being one I wish we had as standard curriculum in the US, like they do in the UK.

If you reject the creation story as literal and absolute truth, you reject the fact that scripture is the anointed word of Yah.

It is a common tactic of the enemy to get people to reject the truth provided by Yah. That is clearly presented as what happened to Eve. You have fallen for the same old tactic.

I once knew a girl that was raised Catholic but rejected Yah and got heavily into witchcraft and paganism. She started worshiping the 'queen of heaven' the pagan goddess Ashtoreth, the goddess of Jezebel. At the age of 14 a spirit appeared to her when she was calling on the 'queen of heaven'. She was taken on as an acolyte of that ancient pagan goddess to be raised up as a high priestess for this nation.

One of the requirements to be that high priestess was to learn the truth and still choice to follow her 'goddess'. One of the reasons Ellen, the girl, rejected Yah was she refused to believe the bible stories. Her so-called 'goddess' even explained that ALL the stories were absolute truth but didn't tell the whole story. The creation and the flood happened just as described but one of the goals of the demonic spiritual realm had been to discredit that truth for ages. They actually plant a lot of false evidence to discredit those stories as part of the great end time deception.

That 'goddess' was actually the daughter of one of the four angels that guarded Eden that was locked up at the time of the tower of Babel and a human mother. She was born not long after the flood and was eye witness to much of those stories. She was the queen mother at Babel, the physical mother of Nimrod and part of the corruption at Babel was worshiping those angels and their offspring as gods.

Since the time of Babel they have been actively trying to discredit the truth presented in scripture to lead as many into error as possible in an attempt to change Yah's mind on the final judgment of all born on the earth in an attempt to escape their own judgment.

I take the biblical stories as absolute truth IF you take it back to the original non-vowel pointed Hebrew and I got confirmation to that truth from the most unlikely place. That is part of the test of our faith if we can trust the word of Yah even with all the false evidence planted in an attempt to get us to reject it as truth.

There is nothing questionable about the morality of Yah. You are judging with a limited subset of the facts and a lot of false evidence planted by the enemy in an attempt to deceive.