Can you defend biblical morality/relevance? Adam and Eve

[Gone Apostate]

I'm new to this forum so i apologize if this is an exhausted topic. I would really like to see what everyone has to say about this. I know some of the standard responses but I'm sure that personal approaches to this topic will add much more to the discussion as I have been exposed to it.

How does our understandings of the stories/traditions of our faith color the way we view, and act in, the world today?

If this is a topic that generates some discussion I would like to follow it up with similar ones but for now why don't we just start at the beginning, at least the beginning of the most commonly held religious beliefs - the creation story, from the Old Testament. This is a story shared by Muslims, Jews and Christians – who together make up over 51% of the religious traditions in the world and about 85% of those in America.

According to a 2010 Gallup poll 40% of Americans believe that man was created in his present form, by God no more than 10,000 years ago. This is down from 55% in 2006 (according to a CBS poll)
.
This is more than a theological discussion. It’s a very hot political one as well. There are still stickers in text books across the country, warning that evolution is ‘just a theory’. There is a renewed push in several states to legislate that evolution be taught with more than the usual disclaimers. 60% of biology teachers are afraid to teach the theory and spend little time on it, if at all. 13 percent of the teachers said they "explicitly advocate creationism or intelligent design…�

So here some questions to consider. I would really like to hear people’s answers to some of these however, if they don’t interest you but the topic does, forget them, just share your thoughts. Please and thank you!

1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?
5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?
7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?

My viewpoint:
I consider it a creation myth on historical par with those of every other faith. I also think there is some seriously questionable morality on the part of the character of God in this story as well. I absolutely don't think that it should be a curriculum topic in science classes, either as young earth creation theory or as intelligent design. The only place I think it has a place it schools would be in a literature or comparative religion class, the latter being one I wish we had as standard curriculum in the US, like they do in the UK.

Thank you for reading and please leave a comment.

Stats:
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... /2122.html
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_public.htm
Teaching the controversy:
http://pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethi ... State.aspx
http://www.antievolution.org/cs/ncse_20110121
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41313808/ns ... e-science/

[Adamoriens]

Hello there, Gone Apostate, and welcome to the forum.

My reading on this subject is rather limited, but I did at various points ingest material from the young-earthers (like Answers in Genesis and ICR), old-earthers like Hugh Ross and Gerald Schroeder, and a smattering of theistic evolutionism. I also have some essays from BioLogos that I hope to read soon. With regard to Genesis, I find that it interprets very nicely in light of Ancient Near East cosmology, particularly the early parts of the creation and some of the descriptions of the Flood. That these texts were obviously influenced by the surrounding culture (the heroic interpretations of modern apologists notwithstanding) should be very theologically significant. Depending on your confidence in modern science to accurately describe the universe's beginnings, belief in the factual inerrancy of the Bible is undermined. On what are we now to ground theological truths? Does the narrative of modern biology weaken the historicity of Eden and the Fall? If it does, isn't the narrative upon which Christianity is based (Perfection, Fall, Redemption) untenable? I'm in the affirmative here: the position which attempts to cohere the closest with modern scientific findings sacrifices a great deal theologically. And so it is vice versa: the view which closest approximates the views of Genesis' writers, in my view Young-Earth Creationism, is not merely un-evidenced but scientifically about two hundred years past obsolescence.

I've been criticized on this forum before for holding a simplistic view of Genesis (by atheists, no less), but the alternative readings have always seemed more problematic internally. But I should stop rambling...cheers.

[ConiectoErgoSum]

1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?
I think I've grown out of that threat, so I'll say no. I think evolution is fully compatible, even a good thing for Christians to know about - it means God actually spent some time on us. We say things like "the bible is inerrant" and "God wrote the bible". A lot of Christians say that, but we've all got an asterisk by it. I think the bible is spiritually, conceptually inerrant - i.e. the big picture is what God wants to convey. The bible itself doesn't seem to suggest that all of it was literally handed to us, or read to us like a script. Some parts were, its says - like Prophets and the Ten Commandments. Nobody even knows who wrote Genesis though, and whether its writing was even meant to be read as "handed down to us". Facts are not the point - thats why the factual descriptions of the earth are rather vague.

2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?
Absolutely. Adam and Eve chose to ignore God's command. He gave them a command, they chose to disobey. They made a decision based on limited information, rather than trusting he who knew a lot more about the situation than they did. There's the concept of trust. Also the concept of choice. Genesis 1 sets the stage of the entire Christian story - the fall of man leads to a long, arduous process of fixing mankind. God gives us laws - we break them. This demonstrates the insufficiency of law. The new testament then replaces law - I could go on and on but I'll stop there.

3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?
Sure I guess. Sin happens, and there was a first time. That would be the "original" one. I don't think we're all being punished for Adam/Eve's sin. We live life in an imperfect world because of the free choice inherent in mankind, and the sin it inevitably leads to.

4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?
God is creative, for one thing. The creation story is not intent upon describing how the world began - it's a story describing God's creative nature. It also gives one instance of man's failure to achieve morality by his own attempts to follow laws- one of many in the old testament. Again, this sets the stage for Christ, and his means of making us moral by living within us - with our permission, of course.

5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?
I don't know if it's literal or not, and frankly no one else does either. I suspect evolution to be factual, but I also doubt that scientists have got all of the history of the world all figured out just from a few fossils and modern observances. When in doubt, I tend to take the most practical approach possible. Why does it matter how we got here?

6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?
The truth is the character of God, the character of man, the beginning of a long story of man's repeated attempts to be good by trying really hard.

7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?
If viewed from the Christian perspective, its role should be to point us away from morality for morality's sake, to inform us that such morality is impossible for humans. It describes God's power, his knowledge, his credibility, and tells us that we should trust what he says.

[NMSquirrel]

1) Is the theory of evolution a threat to your faith? Why or why not?

with evolution there was a critical time where all the circumstances of life was so tenuous that any deviation from the circumstances would have prevented life from forming, ie, if the chemicals were not in the right proportions,temp was a little higher or lower, and various other factors, life would not have formed.
so no evolution is not a threat to my faith. neither are aliens..

2) Are there any moral, spiritual lessons to be learned from Adam and Eve? How can we apply them today?

they were created with the ability to choose,and god showed them they had this ability by testing them with the apple, this result also applies to God also, IE they can choose not to believe in God.
IOW God will always give you a choice.

3) Do you believe in the concept of “Original Sin�. If so, how does it impact how you view the world?

i argue that it was not a sin,that God knew the results and rewarded us by letting us make our own choices.
but the world tends to seek a return to the garden of eden,a place where we are taken care of, without struggle or choices.

4) What, if anything, do feel it says about the character of God, or morality in general?

like parents of children, there comes a time when one must send the kids out on their own and trust that you have done a good enough job at raising them.

5) If you believe the story to be a literal, historical account – what are your thoughts on the evidence/science that counters this understanding?

the out of africa theory supports a origin of humanity.

6) If you believe the story has some truth, if not literal, what do you consider it to be? An allegory – if so, of what?

i believe it to be more of an allegory than a literal story.

7) If you think the story has no historical validity, how would you describe its role/impact in our society? Would you like to see that role changed? How?

quit getting distracted by the physical aspects of the story.
don't get caught up in whether there was an actual Adam and Eve, and hear the wisdom in the story.

[Gone Apostate]

quit getting distracted by the physical aspects of the story.
don't get caught up in whether there was an actual Adam and Eve, and hear the wisdom in the story.

I see very little wisdom in this story. I have looked. As a devout is tried to see it's vaule as anything other than an origin story and there is little. It doesn't teach me how to be a better person, and definitely not how to be a better father. It teaches me I should obey, without question, seek no new knowledge and that's about it.

[NMSquirrel]

I see very little wisdom in this story. I have looked. As a devout is tried to see it's vaule as anything other than an origin story and there is little. It doesn't teach me how to be a better person, and definitely not how to be a better father. It teaches me I should obey, without question, seek no new knowledge and that's about it.

seek no new knowledge?
plenty of references in the bible about seeking knowledge..
i believe if adam and eve had not ate the apple,we would not realize that we had the ability to seek out new knowledge, some of us would be more than comfortable letting God make all our decisions for us..of course we needed to be kicked out..is this a bad thing? i do not think so.

better person?
knowing there is always a choice, helps..
knowing that I make those choices for myself, helps..
understanding that my life is what i make it.. definitely helps.

better father?
there comes a time when you gotta let your kids make their own decisions.
(and trust me you do not want to make all their decisions for them!)
teaching your kids their life is what they make it, makes one a better father..

IT teaches you that? or does religion?

[Gone Apostate]

seek no new knowledge?
plenty of references in the bible about seeking knowledge..
i believe if adam and eve had not ate the apple,we would not realize that we had the ability to seek out new knowledge, some of us would be more than comfortable letting God make all our decisions for us..of course we needed to be kicked out..is this a bad thing? i do not think so.

better person?
knowing there is always a choice, helps..
knowing that I make those choices for myself, helps..
understanding that my life is what i make it.. definitely helps.

better father?
there comes a time when you gotta let your kids make their own decisions.
(and trust me you do not want to make all their decisions for them!)
teaching your kids their life is what they make it, makes one a better father..

Wow. I am constantly surprised at how we can see the same story so differently.

Basic Facts:
1. God creates a beautiful garden where there is no pain or suffering
2. God creates a man and a woman without knowledge of good and evil and place them naked, in the garden.
3. God creates two special trees and commands the man and woman not to eat from one of those trees.
4. Lucifer (subtle above all) temps Adam and Eve. Eve eats the forbidden fruit and then convinces Adam to do so.
5. God returns to find they have disobeyed and now understand good and evil, now can sin, and realize they are naked.
6. He casts them out to a harsher world of mortality, suffering, labor and curses all women thereafter with painful childbirth.

I see it as a story about a God (father) that put an unreasonable restraint on ignorant people (children) Then punished them for it by introducing suffering into the world (or introducing them into the world of suffering) that and making childbirth agonizing for women. – extra little bonus there. It was unreasonable because they were held accountable for a decision they made before they knew good from evil, before they might be equipped to contend with he who was subtle above all.

You see it as a story about personal accountability, and making choices, and letting people and children make their own decisions, you see it as a story about free will.

Let me point out that either God didn’t want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of good and evil, or he wanted them to disobey. Not a fair place for these innocents to be put in. If “of course we needed to be kicked out� why did God set it up such that it was a punishment? Why did God command them NOT to do that which they needed to do? If we are supposed to make our own choices and think for ourselves why did God punish them for it? If it’s about letting our kids make choices why is the story about the punishment they receive when they do?

If it’s a story telling us that we will face difficult choices and those choices come with consequences, why are the children made ignorant, unable to be responsible for their choice? Are you saying they made the right choice by disobeying? Should that be the lesson for us?

The story, without trying to turn it into something that feels better to us, is simply is an origin story that teaches obedience, punishment and the explanation of suffering in the world. It’s Pandora’s box.

lastly: There are some (not many) passages about seeking new knowledge. However in THIS story it seem to be the act that is disobedient and punishable by exile.

[NMSquirrel]

Wow. I am constantly surprised at how we can see the same story so differently.

its really not that different, just a different perspective.

Basic Facts:
1. God creates a beautiful garden where there is no pain or suffering

examine this by thinking about how much effort humanity puts to getting back in the garden of eden( IE, trying to get back to a place with no struggle)

3. God creates two special trees and commands the man and woman not to eat from one of those trees.
4. Lucifer (subtle above all) temps Adam and Eve. Eve eats the forbidden fruit and then convinces Adam to do so.
5. God returns to find they have disobeyed and now understand good and evil, now can sin, and realize they are naked.
6. He casts them out to a harsher world of mortality, suffering, labor and curses all women thereafter with painful childbirth.

if God truly did not want us to touch the tree, he would not have created it.
and do you really think god was 'absent' when they ate the fruit?
the question of 'why' leads me to my belief.

Let me point out that either God didn’t want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of good and evil, or he wanted them to disobey. Not a fair place for these innocents to be put in. If “of course we needed to be kicked out� why did God set it up such that it was a punishment? Why did God command them NOT to do that which they needed to do? If we are supposed to make our own choices and think for ourselves why did God punish them for it? If it’s about letting our kids make choices why is the story about the punishment they receive when they do?

i think the 'punishment' part is mans interpretation of what the motives were..i mean if you were in a place of comfort and all your needs were taken care of and the authority recognized that you could survive outside that comfort zone, and even excel outside that comfort zone, and 'kicked' you out of that comfort zone so you can excel, is this a good thing or a bad thing?
don't we do this to our kids when they get old enough? is it considered punishment to send our kids out on their own to face the world?
do we teach them to hate struggle? or to overcome it?

If it’s a story telling us that we will face difficult choices and those choices come with consequences, why are the children made ignorant, unable to be responsible for their choice? Are you saying they made the right choice by disobeying? Should that be the lesson for us?

yes i am saying they made the right choice, it makes me wonder what the consequence would have been had they NOT ate the fruit.
(this conversation would not be possible, had they not ate the fruit, IE no choices)

The story, without trying to turn it into something that feels better to us, is simply is an origin story that teaches obedience, punishment and the explanation of suffering in the world. It’s Pandora’s box.

religion has made it about obedience,punishment, and suffering.
how much suffering is caused by our own decisions? (yes dear, you do look fat in that dress.)

lastly: There are some (not many) passages about seeking new knowledge. However in THIS story it seem to be the act that is disobedient and punishable by exile.

this is were we will disagree..i say that religion made it about 'do as you told',
religion has corrupted the story as a means of control over others.

would you give up your ability to choose to live a life of comfort?
there are many parallels to this question, the term 'wage slave' seems to qualify as one.

see proverbs for seeking new knowledge quotes.

[Gone Apostate]

this is were we will disagree..i say that religion made it about 'do as you told',
religion has corrupted the story as a means of control over others.

would you give up your ability to choose to live a life of comfort?
there are many parallels to this question, the term 'wage slave' seems to qualify as one.

see proverbs for seeking new knowledge quotes.

I like your interpretation, don't get me wrong - but where does your interpretation come from if not "religion"? Your idea of the meaning of this story is the modern moderate Christian interpretation. It is what centuries of religious adaptation has done to make the story more palatable. You say that you understand the true meaning of the story, in spite of being the furthermost removed from when it was written. When it was first written there was no "interpretation" it was simply as it was written, an account of how God created the world. You say you have the true understanding, uncontaminated my religious interpretation, if that's so then please point to a single quote from Genesis that supports your interpretation.

I give you one that supports mine:
Genesis 3:16-17

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

This IS a punishment, not a coming of age story, not a :well done son you made the right choice, the choice I meant for you" story, not a "way to stand up to your old man and make your own choice" story.

They disobeyed and they were punished, exiled. you may see deeper meaning but it's your inference NOT what the words actually say. I understand metaphor and allegory well enough. I know it doesn't come out and say what it "really" means but if this is meant as an allegory, it's not one where the "good" thing is to venture out on your own and make your own choices, to make of life what you will.

I am not the sharpest tool in the drawer so I am listening. Please tell me where in the story, there is some clue, some inference as to why it says what you say it does, vs. what I say it does.

By the way I know that there are other places in the bible where we are encouraged to learn, there are also others were we are not. What are the chances of a learned man inheriting the kingdom of God. Anyway I won't argue that there are passages in proverbs or elsewhere that say seek knowledge I'm just saying there aren't any in THIS story.
thank you for your patience.

[NMSquirrel]

You say that you understand the true meaning of the story,
You say you have the true understanding,

um..for point of fact..i have never said i have 'the true' meaning.
there are lots of stories in the bible that we will never know the 'true meaning', simply because we have lost certain reference points among time,when it was written it uses allegories of the times when it was written,although we can tease out what those allegories meant, there are some that are lost.

When it was first written there was no "interpretation" it was simply as it was written, an account of how God created the world.uncontaminated my religious interpretation, if that's so then please point to a single quote from Genesis that supports your interpretation.

moses wrote the story of adam and eve(current scholars claim), so to claim 'no interpretation' is in error,moses was not there and could not know, but through the inspiration of God,moses had written genesis.

I am not the sharpest tool in the drawer so I am listening. Please tell me where in the story, there is some clue, some inference as to why it says what you say it does, vs. what I say it does.

when ever i go to the bible to look for a specific passage or lesson, i have a tough time finding it,no matter what the verse/story is, i do know i have had other insights into the bible only to discover later that the bible does back up those insights.

questions that lead me to this particular view;
why would god set up that test in the first place?
he knew what we would do, why would he set up a test so we can fail?
if we were/are such a disappointment, why didn't he just recreate us so we wouldn't fail?
is god capable of creating imperfect beings?
was it on purpose? why?
are we imperfect?( i argue we are all messed up.)
how come no-one can follow the laws? (it must be by design)
how has the canonization process corrupt what was originally intended?
how has religion corrupted what was originally intended?
why does man make it a rule book as opposed to a guide book?

most of these questions end up being a 'do as your told' vs 'think for yourself' argument.
there are lots of passages that teach 'think for yourself' in fact the whole new testament is a 'think for yourself' book as opposed to the old testament which is a 'do as your told' book (which i think is why ppl quote OT more than NT, they want 'do as your told'

so how would God teach us to 'think for ourselves'? (other than scripture)
it certainly would not be by punishing us for 'thinking for ourself'..

certainly when we were kicked out of the garden we felt we were being punished, how much has that influenced our interpretation?

i often argue that if God were to be Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, we would loose the ability to choose (voluntary,self imposed) there would be those who would think that since God is proven then we would have no choice but to do as he says.

the fact that God tends to be subtle in his interactions with us tells me he wants us to 'think for ourselves', if he wanted 'do as your told' he would be more visible just to solidify/confirm/validate his authority over us.