Where does your moral code come from?
The way I see it, either you don't know or you can't have one? And i don't see how such a thing could have evolved......
Anyhow, please tell me where, personally, your moral code comes from.
In the world of an Atheist who defines right and wrong?
Moderator: Moderators
-
Strider324
- Banned
- Posts: 1016
- Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 8:12 pm
- Location: Fort Worth
Re: In the world of an Atheist who defines right and wrong?
Post #31Excellent question. Wondering why no theist has chosen to answer it.Tiberius47 wrote:Let me ask you a question...Jake_ wrote:Where does your moral code come from?
The way I see it, either you don't know or you can't have one? And i don't see how such a thing could have evolved......
Anyhow, please tell me where, personally, your moral code comes from.
Let's say God comes down and tells you that you don't need to worry about morality anymore. No matter what you do - lie, cheat, steal, murder - you are guaranteed to never get caught, never be punished, and God will bring you to Heaven when you die. Absolutely guaranteed. For you, morality has ceased to exist.
Would you become a murder? Rapist?
If not, why not?
"Do Good for Good is Good to do. Spurn Bribe of Heaven and Threat of Hell"
- The Kasidah of Haji abdu al-Yezdi
- The Kasidah of Haji abdu al-Yezdi
Post #32
What we must understand about morality is that it does not actually physically exist. However, neither do any concepts. That's why concepts are concepts and not physical properties.
As an example, The Law of Gravity does not exist, but gravity does.
We must look at morality the same way we look at the scientific method. It does not physically exist, but can lead to greater understanding what does physically exist as well as keep us alive.
Let me try to demonstrate.
You and your child are standing on a highway and there is a car speeding toward you. You have ample opportunity to get yourself, and the child out of the way. Do you?
If your answer is anything but yes, you would be wrong. It would be universally and objectively preferred to get out of the way.
The only people that would not act in self-preservation and the preservation of their child are insane and/or delusional.
Like this instance, their are objectively preferred ways to act. Rape, murder, and theft cannot be moral because in order to act as such requires that others believe the opposite. Morality can only exist conceptually if it does not require its own contradiction. A universal morality
As an example, The Law of Gravity does not exist, but gravity does.
We must look at morality the same way we look at the scientific method. It does not physically exist, but can lead to greater understanding what does physically exist as well as keep us alive.
Let me try to demonstrate.
You and your child are standing on a highway and there is a car speeding toward you. You have ample opportunity to get yourself, and the child out of the way. Do you?
If your answer is anything but yes, you would be wrong. It would be universally and objectively preferred to get out of the way.
The only people that would not act in self-preservation and the preservation of their child are insane and/or delusional.
Like this instance, their are objectively preferred ways to act. Rape, murder, and theft cannot be moral because in order to act as such requires that others believe the opposite. Morality can only exist conceptually if it does not require its own contradiction. A universal morality
Post #33
What we must understand about morality is that it does not actually physically exist. However, neither do any concepts. That's why concepts are concepts and not physical properties.
As an example, The Law of Gravity does not exist, but gravity does.
We must look at morality the same way we look at the scientific method. It does not physically exist, but can lead to greater understanding what does physically exist as well as keep us alive.
Let me try to demonstrate.
You and your child are standing on a highway and there is a car speeding toward you. You have ample opportunity to get yourself, and the child out of the way. Do you?
If your answer is anything but yes, you would be wrong. It would be universally and objectively preferred to get out of the way.
The only people that would not act in self-preservation and the preservation of their child are insane and/or delusional. (examples: "god told me to stay in the road", "MY father said I was evil and had to die")
Like this instance, their are objectively preferred ways to act. Rape, murder, and theft cannot be moral because in order to act as such requires that others don't act as such. Morality can only exist conceptually if it does not require its own contradiction. Morality must be universal.
Inversely, if we make a moral statement "Rape is wrong", we then can determine logically that all humans can abide by this statement without requiring some to not abide by it.
I think if you get rid of the idea that god dictates morality, you can find many reasons to think of morality as axiomatic.
As an example, The Law of Gravity does not exist, but gravity does.
We must look at morality the same way we look at the scientific method. It does not physically exist, but can lead to greater understanding what does physically exist as well as keep us alive.
Let me try to demonstrate.
You and your child are standing on a highway and there is a car speeding toward you. You have ample opportunity to get yourself, and the child out of the way. Do you?
If your answer is anything but yes, you would be wrong. It would be universally and objectively preferred to get out of the way.
The only people that would not act in self-preservation and the preservation of their child are insane and/or delusional. (examples: "god told me to stay in the road", "MY father said I was evil and had to die")
Like this instance, their are objectively preferred ways to act. Rape, murder, and theft cannot be moral because in order to act as such requires that others don't act as such. Morality can only exist conceptually if it does not require its own contradiction. Morality must be universal.
Inversely, if we make a moral statement "Rape is wrong", we then can determine logically that all humans can abide by this statement without requiring some to not abide by it.
I think if you get rid of the idea that god dictates morality, you can find many reasons to think of morality as axiomatic.
Post #34
I could come up with scenarios where people would say that staying in the way of the car is a good thing or rape can be a good thing.
As an example for the first one, assume you and your child have an infection disease that would kill anyone you come in contact with. So death may be a good moral choice to make sure other people live.
Morality starts at the reason for an action, not the action itself.
As an example for the first one, assume you and your child have an infection disease that would kill anyone you come in contact with. So death may be a good moral choice to make sure other people live.
Morality starts at the reason for an action, not the action itself.
Post #35
Maybe the example I gave can be a little loose. That is because I didn't want to delve into rape and murder as they are very touchy subjects.Quath wrote:I could come up with scenarios where people would say that staying in the way of the car is a good thing or rape can be a good thing.
As an example for the first one, assume you and your child have an infection disease that would kill anyone you come in contact with. So death may be a good moral choice to make sure other people live.
Morality starts at the reason for an action, not the action itself.
"rape can be a good thing".... then you wrote that.
Rape cannot be moral. You can't rape someone in self defense. Also, only in some sick twisted Hostel 3 psycho fantasy can a situation exist where someone literally has to rape innocent people to save them. The person responsible for the rape is always immoral, i.e. the person forcing the sexual attack is always wrong. If party A is forcing party B to rape party C, party A is the rapist and B and C are both victims of rape as both are being forced to have unwanted sex.
If B and C cannot avoid the situation they cannot be responsible. This would be the equivalent of the person in front of the moving car with the child being tied to the road, immobilized. The same can be said about someone who is criminally insane and truly believes they are doing good when they rape. They do not have the capacity for morality and they need to be helped and removed from society where they can harm more people.
If a sane person acts in a way to cause, i.e. be the responsible party to, a sexual assault, they have made an immoral choice under any circumstance.
Re: In the world of an Atheist who defines right and wrong?
Post #36I don't consider myself an atheist, but I don't see any direct reason to believe a god/s....regardless, everyones moral code comes from the same place unless you are a sicko. for example, there is a commandment not to murder people. So as a religious person, if someone pisses you off do you feel like murdering them but stop because god wouldn't like it? No, you most likely won't even experience actually wanting to kill someone because it is just wrong. Unless it was some moment of rage, but regardless most people are following their own moral code. If you are constantly having sick, evil urges but curbing them so you don't go to hell than you will probably slip up because you're a psycho. also assuming god is omnipotent and omnipresent and created your soul he probably knows your faking and isn't going to let your sick ass into heavenJake_ wrote: Where does your moral code come from?
The way I see it, either you don't know or you can't have one? And i don't see how such a thing could have evolved......
Anyhow, please tell me where, personally, your moral code comes from.
-
Richard81
- Apprentice
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:36 pm
- Location: Espionage in the Philippines
Re: In the world of an Atheist who defines right and wrong?
Post #37My moral code comes from what I personally view as right. It is the same with everyone. Their are christians who do things most other christians would view as wrong. Its because that christians moral code was different from other christians. I may not believe in any god, but I do still believe in morals. Their is a difference. Jesus taught the same morals I live by naturally, I don't have to be christian to live by them. I don't even have to know Jesus taught them to live by them.Jake_ wrote: Where does your moral code come from?
The way I see it, either you don't know or you can't have one? And i don't see how such a thing could have evolved......
Anyhow, please tell me where, personally, your moral code comes from.
"Faith is the attempt to coerce truth to surrender to whim. In simple terms, it is trying to breathe life into a lie by trying to outshine reality with the beauty of wishes. Faith is the refuge of fools, the ignorant, and the deluded, not of thinking, rational men." - Terry Goodkind.
Post #39
if you meant island, it depends on what kind of island.jamesjah wrote: Funny but the bible says Christians are not under law.
Is one man on a desert Ireland under law?
If it's an unclaimed piece of land in the middle of international waters, thn there isn't a lot of law to be under
and I'm getting pretty tired of these questions lol.
Really this whole 'where do atheists get their morality from' shtick has been done to death and supposed beyond.
My morality comes from me, and if you don't know how morals would have evolved, I suggest getting a basic grip on any social science.
this is getting akin to 'can I get pregnant from masturbation' questions.
-
Nickman
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 5443
- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:51 am
- Location: Idaho
- Been thanked: 1 time
Post #40
Here is a good one:
Why ban the sale of alcohol on Sundays? Is this a law from god or is it from man being over-zealous about their beliefs? Is it an infringement on our free will to choose what we can buy or sell on a specific day?
Atheists derive their moral codes from society, upbringing, environment and the like. We are law abiding citizens. We have no other choice really. We also don't have absolute morality or an absolute lawgiver yet we abide by laws given from our government and our own personal ideas and feelings toward others within our society.
A point was made that if you take away god, would you end up raping or killing someone. We atheists, and others who have abandoned gods, have taken god out of the equation all together yet we live by standards anyone else would. This shows that god is not needed to make moral decisions. Only a will to care for those around you. If a person is an asshole and acts a fool, they probably won't have many friends and we need friends. That is the other reason for morality, strength in numbers.
Why ban the sale of alcohol on Sundays? Is this a law from god or is it from man being over-zealous about their beliefs? Is it an infringement on our free will to choose what we can buy or sell on a specific day?
Atheists derive their moral codes from society, upbringing, environment and the like. We are law abiding citizens. We have no other choice really. We also don't have absolute morality or an absolute lawgiver yet we abide by laws given from our government and our own personal ideas and feelings toward others within our society.
A point was made that if you take away god, would you end up raping or killing someone. We atheists, and others who have abandoned gods, have taken god out of the equation all together yet we live by standards anyone else would. This shows that god is not needed to make moral decisions. Only a will to care for those around you. If a person is an asshole and acts a fool, they probably won't have many friends and we need friends. That is the other reason for morality, strength in numbers.
