Predestination/Election

[BLanE]

I know that this topic is being discussed elsewhere but I wanted to get more specific about it. I am interested in all ideas but especially those from a Christian perspective. Personally, I have a hard time believing that God would create to send some people to heaven and some to hell. The temptation might be to debate the heaven and hell issue but I would like to stay on Predestination and Election. Calvinists believe that everything is preordained. Our lives, our decisions and our eternal dwelling place. I would like to know why some of you believe as John Calvin (please give scripture to support) and why some of you do not. (also, please give scripture to support) I am trying to come to a rational decision and would like some input. Also, if you do believe in the election process, that some of us have been elected to be God's children, then what separates that belief from the Jehova's Witness belief? Just a number? Thanks

[pokerpro]

if you believe in unconditional election your philosophy surely extends to God's pre-ordination of all earthly events, circumstances and personal decisions. If this is the case I can prove that you are wrong and likely, prove that you don't actually believe what you think you do.
-aces

[QED]

if you believe in unconditional election your philosophy surely extends to God's pre-ordination of all earthly events, circumstances and personal decisions. If this is the case I can prove that you are wrong and likely, prove that you don't actually believe what you think you do.
-aces

Hello pokerpro welcome to the DC&R forums I've seen this debated on both religious and scientific discussion boards and even at the quantum level it seems impossible to form a consensus about there being anything truly random taking place in the universe. Life seems contingent enough to me, but other people will argue that God is so deeply woven into the fabric of everything that each and every event is guided by his will. How can one possible argue against that -- short of simply dismissing it as ridiculous?

[gonkm]

I've had a slight change in viewpoint on this since I last posted. Last time I posted, I didn't really believe the will was free at all since God and others can affect it. But they only affect or will if we let them. I thing "free will" is something God does give us, but we can't chose Him until we get to know Him. And the only way we can get to know Him is through Him first working in our hearts and us chosing to listen.

[NGR]

I think it all depends on what you mean by free-will. To have true free-will we would have to have a connection outside the Universe in which we reside and there is no evidence of this. I think any decisions we make are predicated on our genetic makeup tempered by our experiences during our lifetime. It is a simple cause and effect situation.

As far as predetermination is concerned we have no way of knowing if such a thing exists and its contemplation can only ever be idle speculation.

[gonkm]

I think it all depends on what you mean by free-will. To have true free-will we would have to have a connection outside the Universe in which we reside and there is no evidence of this. I think any decisions we make are predicated on our genetic makeup tempered by our experiences during our lifetime. It is a simple cause and effect situation.

As far as predetermination is concerned we have no way of knowing if such a thing exists and its contemplation can only ever be idle speculation.

By free will, I mean the ability to chose, and therefore be responsible for our own decisions. I don't mean we cant to "do anything I want". I do mean that when given a choice, we are actually free to make it. I think the more we get to know God, the more free we become (we can't chose Him unless we know him). And the less we are slaves to sin.

[NGR]

By free will, I mean the ability to chose, and therefore be responsible for our own decisions. I don't mean we cant to "do anything I want". I do mean that when given a choice, we are actually free to make it. I think the more we get to know God, the more free we become (we can't chose Him unless we know him). And the less we are slaves to sin.

But are you really free to make a choice? I submit that if you were placed in the same situation with the same inputs to the decision making process you would make the same decision every time. That is not free choice but constrained choice. The choices we end up making in any given situation are determined by our original genetic programming and any alterations to it by our life experiences.

[gonkm]

By free will, I mean the ability to chose, and therefore be responsible for our own decisions. I don't mean we cant to "do anything I want". I do mean that when given a choice, we are actually free to make it. I think the more we get to know God, the more free we become (we can't chose Him unless we know him). And the less we are slaves to sin.

But are you really free to make a choice? I submit that if you were placed in the same situation with the same inputs to the decision making process you would make the same decision every time. That is not free choice but constrained choice. The choices we end up making in any given situation are determined by our original genetic programming and any alterations to it by our life experiences.

I think quantum dynamics disagrees with you. We are not pre-determined in the sense of matter determining what we do.

If we are not free to make a choice, we can not be held responsible for what we do. We're just a domino to be knocked down. I don't believe this. I believe God created us with love and complexity.

[NGR]

I think quantum dynamics disagrees with you. We are not pre-determined in the sense of matter determining what we do.

Quantum mechanics may muddy the waters a bit but this only adds a random factor to the mix. Our decisions are still a product of physical processes.

If we are not free to make a choice, we can not be held responsible for what we do. We're just a domino to be knocked down. I don't believe this. I believe God created us with love and complexity.

Well the idea might be unpalatable to some but that does not make it incorrect. Your desire has nothing to do with reality, a thing is or isn't and wishful thinking changes nothing.

[Truth101]

I don't know if this is of any help, but I wonder if a belief in predestination is not ultimately self-defeating. In other words, if you believe that nothing you can do or say can lead you to salvation then, why bother with religion in the first place? Conversely, if you are destined for heaven no matter what, can you just forget about loving thy neighbor or even going to church altogether? I wouldn't be surprised if the only people who believed in predestination were those who are convinced that they are themselves among the elect, and I wonder if they find it hard to refrain from feelings of pride (a sin, if I remember right).

I understand everyones problem with the whole idea and there are just too many opinions and points of view in the world in which to turn.
I have been studying alot of different religions in the world as well as being a Christian for roughly 20 years and I too have always questioned the subject of predestination and freewill and I have finally been shown the light on this issue and the answer is deeper than most could imagine.

The whole problem is this; We have one part of the bible stating that God has predestinated us according to his will.

Then we have the belief in an "eternal Heaven" and an "eternal hell" where God in essence would be preordaining people to a place of torment for "eternity" or a place with God for "eternity".

The whole problem lirs in the words "eternity" or "forever" or "everlasting".

All of these words come from the greek word "aion" and its plural "aions" and its adjective "aionious".

Let me give you the strongs definition for these words as a witness to the error of these translations.

In many Bibles the Greek word: "aion" is translated as "forever," and "aionios" is translated, "everlasting," or "eternal."
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end." Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."

Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias? Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK." Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"

Most Lexicons (but not all) define the same way.

The words above are best translated "age", "ages", and aionios is as pertaining to the ages. The ancient languages were void of any one word to imply timelessness and hence translating these words in the matter in which they were have caused more confusion as to what the scriptures are really saying.

As for "predestination" yes God has predestinated all mankind to be saved "everyone in his own order". I have lots of scripture to back up my position if anyone is interested in more light shed on the truth to help you rid your understanding of all darkness.

God bless

I would like to help you understand that everyone will be saved. God has predestinated everyone to be saved and this is a central theme running through the pages of the old testament and the new.

[jjg]

The word predestinaion comes from the Greek "prooridtz" which for god to know or declare through foreknowledge.

It is not causal. God is outside time and see all boundless life in a simultaneous moment.

So he sees who journeys through life and reaches the final goal of salvation through their own free will.

It is like watching the end results of a game. As an observer, you do not affect the oucome of the game.