Predestination/Election

BLanE · Post by **BLanE** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:37 pm

I know that this topic is being discussed elsewhere but I wanted to get more specific about it. I am interested in all ideas but especially those from a Christian perspective. Personally, I have a hard time believing that God would create to send some people to heaven and some to hell. The temptation might be to debate the heaven and hell issue but I would like to stay on Predestination and Election. Calvinists believe that everything is preordained. Our lives, our decisions and our eternal dwelling place. I would like to know why some of you believe as John Calvin (please give scripture to support) and why some of you do not. (also, please give scripture to support) I am trying to come to a rational decision and would like some input. Also, if you do believe in the election process, that some of us have been elected to be God's children, then what separates that belief from the Jehova's Witness belief? Just a number? Thanks

Timeaisis · Post by **Timeaisis** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:43 pm

I'm not biblical scholar, so I unfortunatly cannot quote any supporting evidence to prove anything against Predestination. However, I do disagree totally with the Calvinsit perspective, in that life is some-sort of pre-ordained chain of events that ultimately results in a majority of the people in Hell, and some in Heaven.

I do not see the backing of this debate, as I cannot view God as someone who would simply pre-create our very lives before letting us walk on this planet. That just seems so futile. If our lives our pre-ordained to begin with, then why must we live them? If God already knows the outcome of everyone's life, why let us live in the first place? Couldn't he just create people to fill Hell and to fill Heaven. In my mind, this may be logical, but it also 'seems' to be unfair. But in reality, it's no more fair than letting puppets lead unchangeable, useless lives.

Although I'm not a Christian, I support Free-Will in it's entirety, and I'd rather become a Determinist than a Calvinist believing in some Godly pre-ordainment for there lives. I dislike Calvinism and all it's like, especially Puritianism. I cannot see how some people are created to live good lives and then go to Heaven, and some are there to go to Hell. Why a supreme being would create such fallacies is beyond me, and I cannot conceive God being selfish enough to let us suffer through our lives wondering if we will be saved when we die. I cannot come to myself to agree with the outlook that some are just born in order to be damned. That seems quite pointless, in my eyes. I find, that as God is a just being, he created free will so that we may make our own decisions, whatever th4ey may be. For, with pre-destination, no man could be measured by his goodness, as he is not the one controlling his life in the first place.

wgreen · Post by **wgreen** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:04 pm

Dear BLanE,

On my website I've listed a a collection of verses in support of predestination/election of believers (www.god4science.com/limits.htm). I cited a reference there by Basinger and Basinger (eds.) called Predestination and Free Will (1986). In it, four theologians present four different views on the issue, and each responds to the others' views.

I am not a "five-point" Calvinist (I would drop the L and the P in TULIP).

I'm not sure what you mean by the Jehova's Witnesses question.

Sincerely,

Bill Green

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:02 pm

I don't know if this is of any help, but I wonder if a belief in predestination is not ultimately self-defeating. In other words, if you believe that nothing you can do or say can lead you to salvation then, why bother with religion in the first place? Conversely, if you are destined for heaven no matter what, can you just forget about loving thy neighbor or even going to church altogether? I wouldn't be surprised if the only people who believed in predestination were those who are convinced that they are themselves among the elect, and I wonder if they find it hard to refrain from feelings of pride (a sin, if I remember right).

hannahjoy · Post by **hannahjoy** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:32 pm

Election doesn't save anyone. Faith is always necessary. Election ensures that the elect will believe, but it does not take the place of believing.

I have no doubt that there are people who believe in the doctrine of election, and despair because they think they are not elect. That's not the purpose of the doctrine, but no doubt it does sometimes result in that. No doubt there are also people who excuse their unbelief on the grounds that they are not elect, but that's also a wrong conclusion.

A right understanding of election results in humilty, not pride. It is not based on our merits, but on God's sovereign choice at the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), long before we were ever born - see GreenLight311's signature.

Hannah Joy

fidelis · Post by **fidelis** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:43 pm

I have a hard time believing that God would create to send some people to heaven and some to hell.

that's because He doesn't. We send ourselves to Hell if we turn away from Him.

A good idea would be to read Saint Patrick's "Confession" which is a wonderful piece of writing and deals with predestination

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:18 pm

fidelis wrote:

Quote:
I have a hard time believing that God would create to send some people to heaven and some to hell.

that's because He doesn't. We send ourselves to Hell if we turn away from Him.

But that can't last forever, or some people would be able to resist God till the end (the "successful rebels") thus apparently proving that God is not really omnipotent or that there are things that even omnipotent beings can't do (is this self-contradictory or what?)

Thanks for the St. Patrick reference, I'll check it out.

hannahjoy wrote:

Election doesn't save anyone. Faith is always necessary. Election ensures that the elect will believe, but it does not take the place of believing.

So you're saying faith is a gift?

I haven't met a lot of Calvinists, but the ones I know don't seem to care about the fate of their non-elect neighbors. To them, "love thy neighbor" has limits.
I wonder how they know they're really elect, though.

As for God's sovereign choice, it seems to me that it paints a bad picture of God. If He arbitrarily chooses some to be sent to everlasting Hell, without giving them a chance, how can we say that God is good?

gabbro · Post by **gabbro** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:48 am

The Calvinists take their idea from one verse in the book of Ephesians. There are so many other verses in the bible that talk about free will and choice. I don't understand where they come from on it.

I think that God knows who will and won't , but I don't believe that he picks and chooses. For me, that just doesn't square up with who I know him to be.

fidelis · Post by **fidelis** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:26 pm

But that can't last forever, or some people would be able to resist God till the end (the "successful rebels") thus apparently proving that God is not really omnipotent or that there are things that even omnipotent beings can't do (is this self-contradictory or what?)

God is omnipotent, he has the power to do anything. It is whether or not He chooses to use this power. I think gabbro made a good point in that God knows, but doesn't pick and choose as H ecreated us with Free Will. There is a paradox, in that God knows everything, yet we still have free will. Our choices are known by God and will fulfill His will, but we still have our own free will. For example, when condemning Jesus to death, the Jews had free will, they could have let him go, but through choosing to condemn Him, they fulfilled God's Will. The same could be said for Mary, she had the choice to give birth to Jesus, but by saying 'yes' to her calling, she fulfilled God's will.

Saint Patrick doesn't directly deal with divine predestination, but there are some good points in it which refer to this topic.

By the way, how can you be Agnostic and Catholic?

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:46 am

fidelis wrote:

God is omnipotent, he has the power to do anything. It is whether or not He chooses to use this power.

Many people have argued that there are limits to God's omnipotence: for example, God cannot do logically impossible things (like creating a four-sided triangle). Others argue that "omnipotence" should not be assumed to include such things.

I think gabbro made a good point in that God knows, but doesn't pick and choose as H ecreated us with Free Will. There is a paradox, in that God knows everything, yet we still have free will. Our choices are known by God and will fulfill His will, but we still have our own free will.

Sounds reasonable to me, but still, the paradox of free will has not been successfully resolved. In the 16th century Spanish scholastic Luis de Molina advanced the idea of "scientia media" (middle knowledge), a special kind of knowledge which included counterfactuals. This is still debated today.

For example, when condemning Jesus to death, the Jews had free will, they could have let him go, but through choosing to condemn Him, they fulfilled God's Will.

Well, I must take issue with the assertion that "the Jews condemned Jesus to death". They didn't: the Romans did. The Jews under Rome did not have "ius gladi" (i.e., the right to impose death sentences). Only the Roman authorities had it. Besides, crucifixion was not a Jewish form of execution, but a Roman one. So, while it is possible that some among the Jews might have testified against Jesus or actively sought his indictment, the direct responsibility falls with the Roman authorities (Pilate) at that place and time. And, if those who executed Jesus were fulfilling God's will and therefore saving humanity, perhaps then we should be grateful to them?

By the way, how can you be Agnostic and Catholic?

I explained this in another thread, and it's also in Definitions and explanations (http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 1943319433) but I'll give you a quick answer here:
"Agnostic" is one who does not claim to know whether there is a God or not (a=negative prefix, gnosis=knowledge). There are agnostic atheists ( a lot of them) and agnostic theists (also a lot). Some people however claim to "know" that there is a God (usually a private, subjective, empirical, perhaps mystical, kind of knowledge) and some people claim to "know" that there is no God (perhaps because they find it logically impossible). "Catholic", besides meaning "universal", as I'm sure you know, refers also to a culture or background. I'm an Agnostic Catholic because that's my background and I have not formally left the Church, but don't know what the correct set of beliefs about God are--since I am not sure that God exists in the first place, much as I would like that belief to be true.
I hope I've answered your question.