How much of the Jesus NT story really happened

[polonius]

Lets agree that Jesus was a historical figure who was put to death by the Romans for insurrection. That is claiming to be the Messiah, the King of the Jews.

The year was approximately 33 A.D.

Then there is the story that he was raised from the dead three days after his crucifixion.
Who witnessed that?

[Eloi]

So, coming back ... do have antibiblical non-theistic persons any conspiracy theory about the biblical writers? Do they have any valid reason for not trusting in what these good men wrote?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Tcg]

You are right: even if this point is just tangential, I must give another explanation based on the "universality" of what I said. I apologize, cause I misunderstood your comments.

I said "all Christians in the first century", and I can not be dogmatic about that. Maybe more appropiate would be to say that it is very reasonable to believe that all Christians in the first century witnessed or knew someone who witnessed Jesus, his miracles, resurrection, etc. There are some reasons to believe that:

In 66 EC the followers of Jesus went out of Jerusalem and got rid of the destruction of the city and its temple, when so many Jews were slaughtered by the Romans. It is obvious that they knew what Jesus said, and since John and other disciples were still alive by that time, they had the chance to hear Jesus's prophecy from them.

John himself was alive by the end of the first century. It is said that Revelation was written by him around 98 EC. His inspired book was read on many congregations of that time since on its contents there are messages to be known by at least seven congregations in Asia.

There are even some Christians who lived by the second century known by extrabiblical documents of whom it is said that they were direct apprentices of some apostle or Paul.

Christians were organized in congregations and led by a Governing Body from Jerusalem or elders in their own congregations ... By the events of Acts 15, a letter from the apostles and elders of Jerusalem was taken to several congregations of that time.

These and other reasons make me think that all Christians in the first century knew Jesus or heard directly from someone who did.

[polonius]

All his followers in the first century witnessed all that or knew someone who did.

QUESTION: Who exactly were his "followers" in the first century?

[Eloi]

[Replying to polonius]

That's a timely question ... When I wrote my post#2 I was thinking on the ones who saw him alive and wrote about him and preached about him and his teachings. Somehow I came to think on all Christians in the first century, specially in the Jews who became Christians.

These two passages say more concerning on what I was thinking about:

Luk. 1:1 Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

Acts 10:38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.�

There is enough prove in the Bible that a lot of persons witnessed Jesus miracles, life or resurrection. But people don't want to believe in those testimonials ... and I wonder why.

As I said before, even Jews know about him and witnessed directly or indirectly his miracles. There are some old Jewish scriptures accusing Jesus of doing miracles with power from demons, etc. I'll look for that information and I'll post it in another moment. Maybe other forist knows what I am talking about and can post before myself.

[polonius]

Then there is the story that he was raised from the dead three days after his crucifixion.
Who witnessed that?

According to the original ending of Mark: nobody.

According to the longer ending of Mark: Mary Magdalene and the Eleven.

According to Matthew: both Marys and the Eleven.

According to Luke and Acts: Cleopas, somebody else, and the Eleven (but the Marys didn't).

According to John: Mary Magdalene and the Twelve.

According to Paul (1 Cor 15): Cephas, the Twelve, five hundred assorted brethren, James, the apostles, and Paul.

RESPONSE:
Lets start with Paul's account. It was written about 30 years after the events it described to the people (of Corinthin) located about 800 miles from Jerusalem by someone who was not even in Israel at the time nor was a Christian at the time of the event. None of these "witnesses" (including Romans in Jerusalem) told Pilate or wrote anything about it. This Pauline account was not copied by any of the Gospel writers.

The gospels of Mark was written 40 years after the event and it was about 100-200 years later that someone added an Ascension account.

Matthew's gospel (not the Apostle) and Luke were written about 50 years after the event. The gospel we call John's was written about 65 years after the event (if you believe John was the writer- there is a major problem with his account. Jesus was supposed to have turned over his mother's care to "the beloved disciple) who took Mary into his home within the hour. The Apostles John lived in Galilee a three days journey from Jerusalem.

Do you know the difference between history and legends?

And while most of this was going on Jesus' followers remained orthodox Temple worshiping Jews according to Acts of the Apostles. They did not believe that Jesus was divine. When about 82 AD they decided he was, they were expelled from the synagogues as apostates.

And although "a man can dies but once" whatever happened to all those dead who were miraculously raised from the dead when Jesus died?

[Eloi]

Paul had direct contact with the apostles and other Christians ... It was a Christian who had the mission to cure his eyes and talk to him about the Christian beliefs even before he went some years by himself for later going back to Jerusalen.

Jesus died by 33 EC. 80 years later is not enough time for the experiences of Christians or stories of those who knew Jesus to be forgotten or distorted among the brothers of the different congregations that later formed. There were still Christians who were on the Pentecost of 33 CE alive until the end of the first century and Christianity was the center of their lives ... They not only preached Christ; they lived him in their own flesh and suffered the terrible consequences that accompanied this way of life. Let's be realistic ... let's locate ourselves at the time and stop speculating and getting ideas that have no valid reason ...

[polonius]

[Replying to Tcg]

Since nobody after the second century can tell you he saw what evangelists say, nothing will be enough for you. I guess for you all history recorded in old documents is just the same thing. You trust in who you want to ... everybody does.

Luk. 1:1 Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

RESPONSE: Please tell who the "many" were eyewitnesses and who wrote their accounts. Just verify three (of the "many"), if you can. And what happened to their writings?

How many people wrote stories about Santa Claus? Do you believe that these stories are accurate history?

[polonius]

[Replying to Tcg]

Since nobody after the second century can tell you he saw what evangelists say, nothing will be enough for you. I guess for you all history recorded in old documents is just the same thing. You trust in who you want to ... everybody does.

Luk. 1:1 Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent The·ophʹi·lus, 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

RESPONSE: No. Not everybody. Historians have to separate fact from legend.

[Eloi]

Read the Bible and you'll find what you are asking for. This is a subforum where the Bible is enough authority to verify our statements. If you are not conformed with that, go to the other subforum and express your incorformity.

[polonius]

Everybody trust in who they want. I say "you" cause I am answering to you.

The Bible did not fall from heaven; it was writen by men, so every man can understand ... It says what it says, so it is you who are calling "claims" what Bible says.

John 15:27 and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
... 20:30 To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

1 Pet. 5:1 Therefore, as a fellow elder, a witness of the sufferings of the Christ and a sharer of the glory that is to be revealed, I make this appeal to the elders among you

2 Pet. 1:16 No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we made known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather, we were eyewitnesses of his magnificence.

Acts 10:38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake. 40 God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.�

Even Jews knew everything about Jesus. They never have negated his miracles, even if they considered him an enemy.

Do you have any REAL REASON for not believing in the biblical writers? It would be interesting if anyone can give one.

QUESTION: Does saying that someone was an eye witness verify that they were? My reason for doubting much of it is the many errors these writings contain.

Even the writer of John claims the crucifixion took place a day earlier than Matthew and Luke (both who copied from Mark's gospel).