The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Tcg]

Okay. My understanding of that expression to mean being in idyllic conditions; not to mean some kind of complicated fusion bebween to different realms or universes.


To say the bible is promising "heaven on earth" then would mean the physical (carbon based) planet remains so but that the conditions on this our planet earth become idylic. If that is what you mean, it is exactly what Jehovahs Witnesses teach ie that human beings will remain human beings living'on this our physical planet but without the pollution, war, sickness and other problems that plague mankind. Instead the hope is to live on this earth under idyllic "garden like" conditions.

There is another word people often used when describing the above... paradise!. Do you remember what I said earlier?

That is fine, and what I am saying is; paradise, earth, and heaven will all be the same place..all three will be a new glorified dwelling where God and his people will live forever.

Can it get any more simpler than that?

It truly is simplistic, but it doesn't match scripture:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Note that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate places.


Tcg

[We_Are_VENOM]

Okay. My understanding of that expression to mean being in idyllic conditions; not to mean some kind of complicated fusion bebween to different realms or universes.


To say the bible is promising "heaven on earth" then would mean the physical (carbon based) planet remains so but that the conditions on this our planet earth become idylic. If that is what you mean, it is exactly what Jehovahs Witnesses teach ie that human beings will remain human beings living'on this our physical planet but without the pollution, war, sickness and other problems that plague mankind. Instead the hope is to live on this earth under idyllic "garden like" conditions.

There is another word people often used when describing the above... paradise!. Do you remember what I said earlier?

That is fine, and what I am saying is; paradise, earth, and heaven will all be the same place..all three will be a new glorified dwelling where God and his people will live forever.

Can it get any more simpler than that?

It truly is simplistic, but it doesn't match scripture:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Note that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate places.


Tcg

Yeah, ummm....your reasoning is the same as that of JW's....which I already addressed.

[Tcg]

Okay. My understanding of that expression to mean being in idyllic conditions; not to mean some kind of complicated fusion bebween to different realms or universes.


To say the bible is promising "heaven on earth" then would mean the physical (carbon based) planet remains so but that the conditions on this our planet earth become idylic. If that is what you mean, it is exactly what Jehovahs Witnesses teach ie that human beings will remain human beings living'on this our physical planet but without the pollution, war, sickness and other problems that plague mankind. Instead the hope is to live on this earth under idyllic "garden like" conditions.

There is another word people often used when describing the above... paradise!. Do you remember what I said earlier?

That is fine, and what I am saying is; paradise, earth, and heaven will all be the same place..all three will be a new glorified dwelling where God and his people will live forever.

Can it get any more simpler than that?

It truly is simplistic, but it doesn't match scripture:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Note that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate places.


Tcg

Yeah, ummm....your reasoning is the same as that of JW's....which I already addressed.

This s simply not the case. JWs reject taking the verse I quoted as literal. In any case, you've neglected to address the fact that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate entities


Tcg

[William]

Okay. My understanding of that expression to mean being in idyllic conditions; not to mean some kind of complicated fusion bebween to different realms or universes.


To say the bible is promising "heaven on earth" then would mean the physical (carbon based) planet remains so but that the conditions on this our planet earth become idylic. If that is what you mean, it is exactly what Jehovahs Witnesses teach ie that human beings will remain human beings living'on this our physical planet but without the pollution, war, sickness and other problems that plague mankind. Instead the hope is to live on this earth under idyllic "garden like" conditions.

There is another word people often used when describing the above... paradise!. Do you remember what I said earlier?

That is fine, and what I am saying is; paradise, earth, and heaven will all be the same place..all three will be a new glorified dwelling where God and his people will live forever.

Can it get any more simpler than that?

It truly is simplistic, but it doesn't match scripture:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Note that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate places.


Tcg

What makes you say that?

The way I read it, there is only talk of newness, not of separateness.

What is noteworthy, is that in the talk, heavens [rather than a singular heaven] are spoken of - but even so, we cannot assume that this means they are separate, because clearly the talk glues all these places together as being 'where righteousness dwells.'

[We_Are_VENOM]

This s simply not the case. JWs reject taking the verse I quoted as literal.

Um, the verse you quoted is saying the same thing that Rev 21:1 is saying; a new heaven and a new earth.

So the fact that you point to an almost identical verse (new heaven and new earth) and present it as if you are bringing something new to the table beyond what me and JW were ALREADY discussing, is laughable.

In any case, you've neglected to address the fact that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate entities

Check the transcript, been there..done that.

Next.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses say: Our citizenship will be on paradise earth.

No we do not. You will never read such an expression in any of our literature. The closest you will read is most Jehovah's Witnesses hope to be subjects of the kingdom.

But Paul says: But our citizenship is in heaven. (Phil 3:20)

Yes he did. We do not believe any of our official beliefs contradict the above. If you do... prove it. Specific reference to produced by WBTS will be requested. May I advise you tread carefully, should you actually feel qualified to attempt to present what Jehovahs Witnesses believe.... to one of Jehovahs Witnesses.

What JW's say, and what the Bible say; always seem to conflict

Not to me they don't and I have no interest in debating strawmen arguments. We have never denied or contradicted Pauls words (see above) .




JW

[Tcg]

It truly is simplistic, but it doesn't match scripture:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Note that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate places.


Tcg

What makes you say that?

The way I read it, there is only talk of newness, not of separateness.

What is noteworthy, is that in the talk, heavens [rather than a singular heaven] are spoken of - but even so, we cannot assume that this means they are separate, because clearly the talk glues all these places together as being 'where righteousness dwells.'

It is reference to Gen. 1:1 when God created the heavens and the earth. In this case he is recreating them given that the old ones were destroyed. Perhaps separate is the wrong word, but they are undoubtedly different places if not there be no need for two words to describe what has been recreated.


Tcg

[William]

Note that the new heavens and the new earth are two separate places.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

What makes you say that?

The way I read it, there is only talk of newness, not of separateness.

What is noteworthy, is that in the talk, heavens [rather than a singular heaven] are spoken of - but even so, we cannot assume that this means they are separate, because clearly the talk glues all these places together as being 'where righteousness dwells.'

It is reference to Gen. 1:1 when God created the heavens and the earth. In this case he is recreating them given that the old ones were destroyed. Perhaps separate is the wrong word, but they are undoubtedly different places if not there be no need for two words to describe what has been recreated.

It is an interesting thought that the heavens are made new. I wonder why that has to be? Perhaps there is not only righteousness in the heavens....

It is interesting that "the heavens" are plural - signifying places, rather than a place.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Jehovah's Witnesses say: Our citizenship will be on paradise earth.

No we do not. You will never read such an expression in any of our literature. The closest you will read is most Jehovah's Witnesses hope to be subjects of the kingdom.We do not believe any of our official beliefs contradict the above. If you do... prove it. Specific reference to produced by WBTS will be requested. May I advise you tread carefully, should you actually feel qualified to attempt to present what Jehovahs Witnesses believe.... to one of Jehovahs Witnesses.

Funny you say that...because you quote me above, saying what I said about what JW's believe...

But what is interesting is onewithhim's (a Jehovah's Witness) response to what I said, in post # 1014..

"JWs don't conflict with the Bible. We realize that there are two groups of people that will live forever---144,000 that will reign with Christ in heaven, and an unnumbered group that will live on the earth forever.


I've also had face to face conversations with JW's who share onewithhim's sentiments.

So, what you are talking about, I don't know.

Not to me they don't and I have no interest in debating strawmen arguments. We have never denied or contradicted Pauls words (see above) .

Sure, whatever you say.

[JehovahsWitness]

But what is interesting is onewithhim's (a Jehovah's Witness) response to what I said, in post # 1014..

"JWs don't conflict with the Bible. We realize that there are two groups of people that will live forever---144,000 that will reign with Christ in heaven, and an unnumbered group that will live on the earth forever.

Yes. That is our belief and it is entirely biblical. If you would like to disprove it with scripture (and preferably without sarcasm) be my guest.


JW