JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

The definite articles to both "Gods" shows that it is the Father, YHWH who is referenced both times.

No. Regardless of your theology, if Jesus can ever be referred to as θεὸς, then using a definite article as a vocative indicator wouldn't somehow be invalid.

"God is your throne forever" shows the article because it is the Almighty YHWH who is being spoken about.

Or else the person being spoken to is being referred to as a god. One or the other. It's ambiguous.

"God, your God" in verse 9 refers to the Father also. None of the articles refer to the Son.

You can assert that if you want and you can personally harmonize it that way if you want, but that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. There's no grammatical reason that the Son can't be equated with the Father, so your argument is no more than your conviction that he never is. That is, shall we say, of limited value.

Yes, you are right. It is my conviction that Jesus never is equal to the Father.

[Capbook]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not {SNIP: don't care}

I dont see anythjng in your post that addresses the specific points made.

Your conclusion as "thy throne is from God" isn't that adding the original Greek writings?

That it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. As it clearly proves that Christ is Divine.

Yes he is divine but not God Almighty. "Divine" means "of, from, or like God or a god; more than humanly excellent, gifted, or beautiful." (Illustrated Oxford Dictionary, 1998)

And have you not gleaned yet from all of the discussion that Greek translation is different from English? We have to add certain words to round out the meaning. It's like if in the Greek it is said, "Rover is dog." It has no article, so we know that Rover is not the only dog. Now we have to make it understandable in English, so we say, "Rover is a dog." We are not adding to the meaning. We are simply following the rules of translation from Greek to English.

"In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns in the nominative form: 'throne' and 'God.' The verb 'is' might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying 'x' is 'y' in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever.' The NRSV and the TEV translators also recognize this as a possible translation of this verse, and include it in a footnote in their respective translations." (Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, page 98.)

"Rover is a dog" or "Rover is the dog" adding anything to the originals leads to different understanding.
Why add? Even NRSV and TEV you have mentioned does not say "thy throne is from God".

Heb 1:8
8 But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
NRSV

Heb 1:8
8 About the Son, however, God said:
"Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever!
You rule over your people with justice.
TEV

[Difflugia]

Yes, you are right. It is my conviction that Jesus never is equal to the Father.

And if you intend to successfully debate that, you'll need more than mere conviction.

[onewithhim]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not {SNIP: don't care}

I dont see anythjng in your post that addresses the specific points made.

Your conclusion as "thy throne is from God" isn't that adding the original Greek writings?

That it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. As it clearly proves that Christ is Divine.

Yes he is divine but not God Almighty. "Divine" means "of, from, or like God or a god; more than humanly excellent, gifted, or beautiful." (Illustrated Oxford Dictionary, 1998)

And have you not gleaned yet from all of the discussion that Greek translation is different from English? We have to add certain words to round out the meaning. It's like if in the Greek it is said, "Rover is dog." It has no article, so we know that Rover is not the only dog. Now we have to make it understandable in English, so we say, "Rover is a dog." We are not adding to the meaning. We are simply following the rules of translation from Greek to English.

"In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns in the nominative form: 'throne' and 'God.' The verb 'is' might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying 'x' is 'y' in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever.' The NRSV and the TEV translators also recognize this as a possible translation of this verse, and include it in a footnote in their respective translations." (Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, page 98.)

"Rover is a dog" or "Rover is the dog" adding anything to the originals leads to different understanding.
Why add? Even NRSV and TEV you have mentioned does not say "thy throne is from God".

Heb 1:8
8 But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
NRSV

Heb 1:8
8 About the Son, however, God said:
"Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever!
You rule over your people with justice.
TEV

If Rover was THE dog, he would be one of a kind. The article in front of it tells us if that is the case. There is no Greek article there, so translators to English must follow the rules to translate Greek into English. We don't say "Rover is dog." We say "Rover is A dog." That is understood by a Greek reader.

I think that the TEV and the NRSV have the concession that "God is thy throne" in their margins. It is a viable translation. In fact, the James Moffatt Translation renders Hebrews 1:8 as:
"He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever." The American Standard Version in a margin says: "Or, Thy throne is God." You see, there are versions that will say that "God is your throne" is a satisfactory translation.

[John17_3]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #1768]

Can you provide me with a reference for what you are saying, please.
The Wikipedia article just says,

From Middle English O, o, from Old English o, from Latin o and Ancient Greek ὦ (ô, interjection). Featured prominently in William Tyndale's 1525 translation of the New Testament.

Usage notes
The word O is typically written in upper case in modern usage.
O is often used in translations from languages which have the vocative case.
Although it is not strictly archaic, the particle is sometimes used archaizingly. It conveys a formal or reverential tone.

That, however does not help me see what you are saying.

[Brucknerian]

Jesus is God, the Son ... a representation of God the Father, in finite human form; but to understand this on the deepest level you'll have to partake in a reading of the following work that I've just posted for a topic of discussion elsewhere. For only those in truly wishing to delve into the question you posed on a more serious level, and not those who are of the opinion that your question cannot be answered satisfortorily and without impinging on what some see as the authoritative text of the Bible. The Bible does not give us the full answer to the God/Father relation, or the duality of the Godhead, but this doesn't mean that this mystery cannot be unravelled outside of the scriptures, through pure critical thinking, and philosophical reasoning. What for instance, does Christ mean when in the very last chapter of the book of Revelation, he calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end? The following work will unravel this for you, but be prepared to start straining your mental capacity to the fullest (there's an abstract summary of the 'science' it puts forth that follows the Appendix and it helps readers, hopefully, to comprehend the conceptual system of understanding that the science advances):

https://philpapers.org/archive/LIIRTP-2.pdf

[Difflugia]

That, however does not help me see what you are saying.

"Vocative" means direct address. In the following example, the name Ruth is vocative, because Ruth is being addressed directly.

Good morning, Ruth!

In this second example, the name Ruth is not vocative.

I wished Ruth a good morning.

By the time the Bible was written, Hellenistic Greek sometimes used the definite article to show that a particular noun, name, or title was being used in direct address. Hebrews 10:7 uses this construction:

Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, ὁ θεὸς, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

Hebrews 1:8 looks very similar to this:

But of the Son he says, “Your throne is, ὁ θεὸς, forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Witnesses read this as, "Your throne is God," to avoid the implication of God also referring to Jesus as God.

If this doesn't answer your question, I don't understand what your question actually is.

[myth-one.com]

Jesus is God, ...

The scriptures state That God is a spirit:

God is a Spirit: (John 4:24)

The scriptures also claim that there is one God, and it wasn't Jesus, because Jesus was a man:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So Jesus was a man.

And if Jesus was a man, then the statement "Jesus is God" is false.

[Capbook]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not {SNIP: don't care}

I dont see anythjng in your post that addresses the specific points made.

Your conclusion as "thy throne is from God" isn't that adding the original Greek writings?

That it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. As it clearly proves that Christ is Divine.

Yes he is divine but not God Almighty. "Divine" means "of, from, or like God or a god; more than humanly excellent, gifted, or beautiful." (Illustrated Oxford Dictionary, 1998)

And have you not gleaned yet from all of the discussion that Greek translation is different from English? We have to add certain words to round out the meaning. It's like if in the Greek it is said, "Rover is dog." It has no article, so we know that Rover is not the only dog. Now we have to make it understandable in English, so we say, "Rover is a dog." We are not adding to the meaning. We are simply following the rules of translation from Greek to English.

"In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns in the nominative form: 'throne' and 'God.' The verb 'is' might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying 'x' is 'y' in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever.' The NRSV and the TEV translators also recognize this as a possible translation of this verse, and include it in a footnote in their respective translations." (Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, page 98.)

"Rover is a dog" or "Rover is the dog" adding anything to the originals leads to different understanding.
Why add? Even NRSV and TEV you have mentioned does not say "thy throne is from God".

Heb 1:8
8 But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
NRSV

Heb 1:8
8 About the Son, however, God said:
"Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever!
You rule over your people with justice.
TEV

If Rover was THE dog, he would be one of a kind. The article in front of it tells us if that is the case. There is no Greek article there, so translators to English must follow the rules to translate Greek into English. We don't say "Rover is dog." We say "Rover is A dog." That is understood by a Greek reader.

I think that the TEV and the NRSV have the concession that "God is thy throne" in their margins. It is a viable translation. In fact, the James Moffatt Translation renders Hebrews 1:8 as:
"He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever." The American Standard Version in a margin says: "Or, Thy throne is God." You see, there are versions that will say that "God is your throne" is a satisfactory translation.

Why come to man's words construction? The original Greek says, see the Greek "throne" comes first than the Greek word "God". It can never be "God is thy throne". So the rendering of KJV is correct and not the other translations.

Heb 1:8 But G1161  unto G4314  the G3588  Son G5207  he saith, Thy G4675  throne, G2362  O God, G2316  is for ever and ever: G1519 G165 G165  a sceptre G4464  of righteousness G2118  is the G3588  sceptre G4464  of thy G4675  kingdom. G932 

Heb 1:8 προς G4314 PREP  δε G1161 CONJ  τον G3588 T-ASM  υιον G5207 N-ASM  ο G3588 T-NSM  θρονος G2362 N-NSM  σου G4771 P-2GS  ο G3588 T-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  εις G1519 PREP  τον G3588 T-ASM  αιωνα G165 N-ASM  του G3588 T-GSM  αιωνος G165 N-GSM  ραβδος G4464 N-NSF  ευθυτητος G2118 N-GSF  η G3588 T-NSF  ραβδος G4464 N-NSF  της G3588 T-GSF  βασιλειας G932 N-GSF  σου G4771 P-2GS 

Heb 1:8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν· ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ Θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος· ῥάβδος εὐθύτητος ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.

[onewithhim]

Jesus is God, the Son ... a representation of God the Father, in finite human form; but to understand this on the deepest level you'll have to partake in a reading of the following work that I've just posted for a topic of discussion elsewhere. For only those in truly wishing to delve into the question you posed on a more serious level, and not those who are of the opinion that your question cannot be answered satisfortorily and without impinging on what some see as the authoritative text of the Bible. The Bible does not give us the full answer to the God/Father relation, or the duality of the Godhead, but this doesn't mean that this mystery cannot be unravelled outside of the scriptures, through pure critical thinking, and philosophical reasoning. What for instance, does Christ mean when in the very last chapter of the book of Revelation, he calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end? The following work will unravel this for you, but be prepared to start straining your mental capacity to the fullest (there's an abstract summary of the 'science' it puts forth that follows the Appendix and it helps readers, hopefully, to comprehend the conceptual system of understanding that the science advances):

https://philpapers.org/archive/LIIRTP-2.pdf

No, Jesus is not God. He himself said that he was God's SON. He also said that he could not do anything of his own volition but he learned from the Father, and the Father GAVE him all the authority and power that he had. He said that the Father was GREATER than he, and the Father was "the only true God." He called the Father "my God." The Bible is very clear on this, notwithstanding the few verses that are confusing or can be translated in more than one way, which you rely on to prove the trinity doctrine.

"Jesus answered them:...'do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, "you blaspheme," because I said I am God's SON?'" (John 10:36)

"Therefore in answer Jesus went on to say to them: 'Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19)

"Jesus approached and spoke to them saying: 'All authority has been GIVEN me in heaven and on the earth.'" (Matthew 28:18)

"If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28b)

In prayer to the Father: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD." (John 17:3)

"I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17b)

Any comment on these clear verses?