A Messiah who did not usher in the Messianic age

[Elijah John]

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd time around".

For debate: In light of the above two statements, how could:

-Jesus be the Messiah?

-Jesus honestly be considered "God"?

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

[Yahu]

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd time around".

For debate: In light of the above two statements, how could:

-Jesus be the Messiah?

-Jesus honestly be considered "God"?

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

The Jews break down all the messianic prophecies as describing two messiahs which they call 'messiah ben David' (the ruling messiah) and 'messiah ben Joseph' (the suffering messiah). Many that rejected Yeshua as messiah was because they expected 'messiah ben David' to come 1st which Christianity sees the order reversed. Yeshua didn't come to throw off the Roman occupation of Israel but comes back to rule at the 2nd coming.

Who says Yah is wrong about the timeframe? It is clearly laid out in Gen 1:1 the interval of the two times the messiah comes by the placement of the two uses of 'aleph-tav'.

[catnip]

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd time around".

For debate: In light of the above two statements, how could:

-Jesus be the Messiah?

-Jesus honestly be considered "God"?

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

I don't think he got it wrong. And the time came--albeit probably very few of those present were still alive, but it would have been possible for them to live that long. The end was the destruction of Israel and it was complete, total and the Jews were scattered to the ends of the earth as Isaiah had predicted.

Here is a link to Matthew 24 in Biblehub Interlinear: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-2.htm
Read it sentence by sentence and ignore none of them.

Sentences ignored or reinterpreted in some other way:

Their question: Tell us when these things will happen and their completion at the end of the age.

The end of the age--eon. The world has aeons or ages that are approximately 2000 years long. As you might have heard some claim that we are now or have now entered the Age of Aquarius.

Mention of battles: Remember, this was the time in which Rome was at her height. And all of the known world was or would be under the control of Rome.

"With all these things the birth pangs of the New Age begin." Matt 24:8 So, in his own words, he is speaking of the end of the old age and the beginning of the new age--not the end of the world--but the end of Israel/Judea for the next 2000 years.

He warns of imposters in Matt 24:3. In 135 CE--after every book and Epistle of the New Testament had been written--a man named bar Kokhba lead the final revolt against the Romans. Many thought HE was the Messiah! But he wasn't. And they lost the revolt and the Romans killed every Jew they could find in the land. At that time the fulfillment of all that Jesus said about going to the hills, fleeing and not going back for your coat, all came true. Rome destroyed 150 cities and towns in Judea and renamed the land Palestinia (operating from memory here, so something like that which later became Palestine). This is why the Jews were scattered to the ends of the earth the way Isaiah had predicted.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... volt1.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

Remember that there is metaphorical language, that a literal interpretation of what he says may mislead you and has mislead many. But the specific things he says all relate to that time and destruction of Judea. It WAS the end for all that had ever been and the beginning of a new age.

If you read Rome's account of what occurred, you will find the literal mention of blood running up to the level of the horses bridles. This exact prediction is also found in Revelation.

[Elijah John]

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd time around".

For debate: In light of the above two statements, how could:

-Jesus be the Messiah?

-Jesus honestly be considered "God"?

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

I don't think he got it wrong. And the time came-.

I disagree. The time did NOT come, the time of Jesus returning with his Father's avenging angels dishing out rewards and punishments according to each person's works. Jesus said that would happen in the lifetime of his listeners Matthew 16, 26,27. It still hasn't happened.

So we are left with a "Messiah" who failed to usher in the Messianic age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about the timing of his 2nd time around.

[Yahu]

I disagree. The time did NOT come, the time of Jesus returning with his Father's avenging angels dishing out rewards and punishments according to each person's works. Jesus said that would happen in the lifetime of his listeners Matthew 16, 26,27. It still hasn't happened.

That is NOT what Matthew says!
Ma 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

John was standing there. John did see those events in his lifetime and recorded it in the book of Revelation.

It does NOT say those events will happen in their lifetime but some present will SEE THOSE EVENTS in their lifetime. John's vision is the only example we have of some of those present will see.

That prophecy was fullfilled exactly as stated. It is you that is making an assumption that the events will happen in their lifetime but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. It only states those events will be seen. You are not accounting for John being 'caught up' into the future heavenly realm to witness those events.

[Zzyzx]

.

you need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

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[Elijah John]

I disagree. The time did NOT come, the time of Jesus returning with his Father's avenging angels dishing out rewards and punishments according to each person's works. Jesus said that would happen in the lifetime of his listeners Matthew 16, 26,27. It still hasn't happened.

That is NOT what Matthew says!
Ma 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

John was standing there. John did see those events in his lifetime and recorded it in the book of Revelation.

It does NOT say those events will happen in their lifetime but some present will SEE THOSE EVENTS in their lifetime. John's vision is the only example we have of some of those present will see.

That prophecy was fullfilled exactly as stated. It is you that is making an assumption that the events will happen in their lifetime but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. It only states those events will be seen. You are not accounting for John being 'caught up' into the future heavenly realm to witness those events.

Regarding literary compehension and structure, verses 27 and 28 are contained within the same paragraph, therefore the subject matter is the same.

Verse 27 refers to the

"Son of Man coming in the glory of the Father and with his angels to repay everyone for what has been done"

sure sounds like a description of the 2nd coming to me, and then verse 28 reads:

Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who iwill not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Same paragraph, same subject. The 2nd coming.

So, once again we are left with a "Messiah" who did not usher in the Messianic Age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about the timing of his "2nd time around".

This is evidence in and of itself that Jesus was not "God" as God would not be wrong about a prediction he made.

Or it is evidence that Evangelist Matthew got it wrong, and therefore the Bible, (as good as the Good Book may be) is not perfect.

[Yahu]

I disagree. The time did NOT come, the time of Jesus returning with his Father's avenging angels dishing out rewards and punishments according to each person's works. Jesus said that would happen in the lifetime of his listeners Matthew 16, 26,27. It still hasn't happened.

That is NOT what Matthew says!
Ma 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

John was standing there. John did see those events in his lifetime and recorded it in the book of Revelation.

It does NOT say those events will happen in their lifetime but some present will SEE THOSE EVENTS in their lifetime. John's vision is the only example we have of some of those present will see.

That prophecy was fullfilled exactly as stated. It is you that is making an assumption that the events will happen in their lifetime but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. It only states those events will be seen. You are not accounting for John being 'caught up' into the future heavenly realm to witness those events.

Regarding literary compehension and structure, verses 27 and 28 are contained within the same paragraph, therefore the subject matter is the same.

Verse 27 refers to the

"Son of Man coming in the glory of the Father and with his angels to repay everyone for what has been done"

sure sounds like a description of the 2nd coming to me, and then verse 28 reads:

Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who iwill not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Same paragraph, same subject. The 2nd coming.

So, once again we are left with a "Messiah" who did not usher in the Messianic Age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about the timing of his "2nd time around".

This is evidence in and of itself that Jesus was not "God" as God would not be wrong about a prediction he made.

Or it is evidence that Evangelist Matthew got it wrong, and therefore the Bible, (as good as the Good Book may be) is not perfect.

I agree that the topic is the Messianic Age. But I also see that the Messianic age was SEEN BY some present in their lifetime. It wasn't to witness the events in their lifetime but in visions of that Age coming about that WAS SEEN in their lifetime.

The prophecy WAS FULFILLED exactly as stated. It is your assumption that the Messianic Age had to come for EVERYONE to see in that lifetime is the error.

Yeshua spoke the absolute truth.

[Elijah John]

I disagree. The time did NOT come, the time of Jesus returning with his Father's avenging angels dishing out rewards and punishments according to each person's works. Jesus said that would happen in the lifetime of his listeners Matthew 16, 26,27. It still hasn't happened.

That is NOT what Matthew says!
Ma 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

John was standing there. John did see those events in his lifetime and recorded it in the book of Revelation.

It does NOT say those events will happen in their lifetime but some present will SEE THOSE EVENTS in their lifetime. John's vision is the only example we have of some of those present will see.

That prophecy was fullfilled exactly as stated. It is you that is making an assumption that the events will happen in their lifetime but you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. It only states those events will be seen. You are not accounting for John being 'caught up' into the future heavenly realm to witness those events.

Regarding literary compehension and structure, verses 27 and 28 are contained within the same paragraph, therefore the subject matter is the same.

Verse 27 refers to the

"Son of Man coming in the glory of the Father and with his angels to repay everyone for what has been done"

sure sounds like a description of the 2nd coming to me, and then verse 28 reads:

Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who iwill not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Same paragraph, same subject. The 2nd coming.

So, once again we are left with a "Messiah" who did not usher in the Messianic Age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about the timing of his "2nd time around".

This is evidence in and of itself that Jesus was not "God" as God would not be wrong about a prediction he made.

Or it is evidence that Evangelist Matthew got it wrong, and therefore the Bible, (as good as the Good Book may be) is not perfect.

I agree that the topic is the Messianic Age. But I also see that the Messianic age was SEEN BY some present in their lifetime. It wasn't to witness the events in their lifetime but in visions of that Age coming about that WAS SEEN in their lifetime.

The prophecy WAS FULFILLED exactly as stated. It is your assumption that the Messianic Age had to come for EVERYONE to see in that lifetime is the error.

Yeshua spoke the absolute truth.

You seem to be missing the "repay everyone" phrase in verse 27. Jesus didn't "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners there. He has yet to do so.

[onewithhim]

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

This question is based on a premise that your interpretation of certain scriptures must be right, however imho you are absolutely wrong in your assumption.

Jesus was very explicit that he himself did not know when the world system would end because such information was privy to his father alone but he (Jesus) gave plenty of indication that the world changes he (Jesus) would implement would be well in the future and that his disciples were not to expect it immediately.


JW

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, more than a few threads on this site have demonstrated that Jesus expected his "arrival with the Father's angels" do judge the living and the dead, to occur in the lifetime of his apostles

This is in harmony with the expressed expectations of Paul, the author of Hebrews, and other NT writers.

The implications of these failed predictions and expectations may be too distruptive to one's belief system, but that does not change the plain meaning of those passages.

Those disturbing passages cannot be made to mean anything else without resorting to linguistic, literary or rhetorical gymnastics. Or appeal to such speculative concepts such as "dispensations" instead of plainly understood "generations".

It is one thing to cling to shattered theology and Biblical infallibility, but hadn't one ought refrain from criticizing others who to try to salvage what they can from the Bible, in spite of it's errors?

Dang, there I go again....explaining something and being dismissed out-of-hand. I had gone through this before, showing that the Scriptures indicate that there would be a long time before Jesus would return in Kingdom power.

"The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord [the Messiah]: Sit at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. The rod of thy strength doth Jehovah send from Zion, Rule in the midst of thine enemies." (Psalm 110:1,2, Young's Literal Translation) This scripture indicates that there would be a period of time between Jesus' first coming as Jehovah's Son, and then Jesus' coming in Kingdom power. That is clearly indicated, to me.

The Apostles asked Jesus, just before he ascended back to heaven, "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" Jesus said, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority." (Acts 1:6,7, NASB) Does that sound like Jesus was indicating to them that he would return immediately? As Jehovah's Witness said above: Jesus did not know when he would be coming back....only the Father knew, and He hadn't told Jesus. (Mark 13:32)

Also:

"And after a long time cometh the Lord of those servants, and taketh reckoning with them." (Matthew 25:19, Young's) This was a parable about Jesus leaving his servants with certain assignments, and then returning to deal with the outcome. He said that the lord of those servants, or, himself being the Lord, would come back after a long time. I don't see how the Scriptures tell us something different. Jesus' disciples didn't think that he would return in their lifetime, especially after what he said at Acts 1:7. And I don't believe that Paul thought that either. He gave prophecies of what would happen in the end times, and his prophecies haven't happened yet....particularly the "saying 'Peace and security'" (I Thessalonians 5:3) According to Paul, this would come just before "Jehovah's day." (verse 2) We're still waiting for the nations to declare "Peace and security." In addition to that, Paul spoke of ALL of the anointed brothers of Christ being taken to heaven at the time of Jesus' coming back again. This hasn't happened yet. (I Thess. 4:15)

My comments have been ignored again. Would someone have the kindness to respond to the post above?

[Yahu]

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

This question is based on a premise that your interpretation of certain scriptures must be right, however imho you are absolutely wrong in your assumption.

Jesus was very explicit that he himself did not know when the world system would end because such information was privy to his father alone but he (Jesus) gave plenty of indication that the world changes he (Jesus) would implement would be well in the future and that his disciples were not to expect it immediately.


JW

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, more than a few threads on this site have demonstrated that Jesus expected his "arrival with the Father's angels" do judge the living and the dead, to occur in the lifetime of his apostles

This is in harmony with the expressed expectations of Paul, the author of Hebrews, and other NT writers.

The implications of these failed predictions and expectations may be too distruptive to one's belief system, but that does not change the plain meaning of those passages.

Those disturbing passages cannot be made to mean anything else without resorting to linguistic, literary or rhetorical gymnastics. Or appeal to such speculative concepts such as "dispensations" instead of plainly understood "generations".

It is one thing to cling to shattered theology and Biblical infallibility, but hadn't one ought refrain from criticizing others who to try to salvage what they can from the Bible, in spite of it's errors?

Dang, there I go again....explaining something and being dismissed out-of-hand. I had gone through this before, showing that the Scriptures indicate that there would be a long time before Jesus would return in Kingdom power.

"The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord [the Messiah]: Sit at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. The rod of thy strength doth Jehovah send from Zion, Rule in the midst of thine enemies." (Psalm 110:1,2, Young's Literal Translation) This scripture indicates that there would be a period of time between Jesus' first coming as Jehovah's Son, and then Jesus' coming in Kingdom power. That is clearly indicated, to me.

The Apostles asked Jesus, just before he ascended back to heaven, "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" Jesus said, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority." (Acts 1:6,7, NASB) Does that sound like Jesus was indicating to them that he would return immediately? As Jehovah's Witness said above: Jesus did not know when he would be coming back....only the Father knew, and He hadn't told Jesus. (Mark 13:32)

Also:

"And after a long time cometh the Lord of those servants, and taketh reckoning with them." (Matthew 25:19, Young's) This was a parable about Jesus leaving his servants with certain assignments, and then returning to deal with the outcome. He said that the lord of those servants, or, himself being the Lord, would come back after a long time. I don't see how the Scriptures tell us something different. Jesus' disciples didn't think that he would return in their lifetime, especially after what he said at Acts 1:7. And I don't believe that Paul thought that either. He gave prophecies of what would happen in the end times, and his prophecies haven't happened yet....particularly the "saying 'Peace and security'" (I Thessalonians 5:3) According to Paul, this would come just before "Jehovah's day." (verse 2) We're still waiting for the nations to declare "Peace and security." In addition to that, Paul spoke of ALL of the anointed brothers of Christ being taken to heaven at the time of Jesus' coming back again. This hasn't happened yet. (I Thess. 4:15)

My comments have been ignored again. Would someone have the kindness to respond to the post above?

Well it is pointless and against the rules to just say 'I agree'. I do agree that the Messianic age was to be a long time off but it was also true that some present would SEE those events as John did see those events and record them in the book of Revelation.

So both can be true. The events could be a long time off yet still have some present SEE those events in their lifetime. They just don't understand that John was 'caught up' into the future to witness those events and record them in his lifetime.

This is no scriptural gymnastics but looking at the actual wording of the passage instead of applying assumptions to the meanings. The events could be SEEN in their lifetime without having to have them occur in their lifetime. The possibility of John time traveling to the future to witness events is totally ignored. It required a supernatural miracle to fulfill the prophecy yet we have the book of Revelation as proof that John did witness the messianic age come into being in the distant future.