A Messiah who did not usher in the Messianic age

[Elijah John]

And a "God" who was wrong about the time frame of his "2nd time around".

For debate: In light of the above two statements, how could:

-Jesus be the Messiah?

-Jesus honestly be considered "God"?

-What kind of "God" is wrong about his own prediction of his own 2nd visit to earth? (supposedly in the lifetime of his apostles)

[Yahu]

You seem to be missing the "repay everyone" phrase in verse 27. Jesus didn't "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners there. He has yet to do so.

He was talking about the messianic age everyone would get their reward. He did NOT say they would get those rewards in their lifetime. The ONLY thing that is stated would occur in SOME of their lifetimes was that SOME present would SEE those events in their current lifetime.

John was told directly by Yeshua of gaining those rewards and even wrote the 7 dictated letters that describe earning those rewards.

John saw 24 elders in Heaven already with their crowns. They had already gained their rewards.

This prophecy was fulfilled exactly as stated.

It is simple. Yeshua tells about the messianic age then states that someone present would see those events in their lifetime. The messianic age has not happened yet but John has already seen it happen. Simple and fulfilled as stated.

[Elijah John]

The possibility of John time traveling to the future to witness events is totally ignored. It required a supernatural miracle to fulfill the prophecy yet we have the book of Revelation as proof that John did witness the messianic age come into being in the distant future.

That's part of my point, we should not look to the book of Revelation to get our history. It is a historical fact that Jesus did not have any kind of "2nd coming" in the lifetime of his apostles.

To appeal to the book of Revelation and time-travel fulfillement of what is otherwise a failed prophesy, seems to me a desperate attempt to salvage that failed prophecy.

Seems an attempt to cite an unprovable hypothetical, at this point anyway.

By that token, we could keep pushing the prophecy ad infinitum into the future, in order to validate it's veracity.

[JehovahsWitness]

My comments have been ignored again. Would someone have the kindness to respond to the post above?

This is one of the (rare) occassions I am in total agreement with Yahu (needless to say I agree with [ your post 17 ] my dear onewithhim). Like you, I myself have posted a list of scriptures that indicate clearly Jesus was not teaching that his return was imminent but rather that there would be a considerable "delay" only to not recieve and alternative explanation of what these passages DO mean, so shed not tears.

Further Yahu is abolutely right in his post to highlight the difference between seeing an event (as was the case for the visions of some of Jesus' first century listeners (and the Apostle John, in his visions in the revelation) and the event actually happening, and I hazard a guess that that his specific distiction will also not be acknowledged as that would be instrumental in debunking the idea that "jesus was wrong"...

In this case I would suggest that silence is the very best of compliments,


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

You seem to be missing the "repay everyone" phrase in verse 27. Jesus didn't "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners .

He didn't say he would repay everyone in the lifetime of his listeners.

MATTHEW 16: 27, 28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... w+16:27-28

In the above verses we see Jesus make a prediction (prophecy) in verse 27 and a promise (v 28). The prophecy has two features (a) and (b)...

v 27: (a) 'the son of man [coming]" followed by (b) reward for "each person" / "everyone" (JB) according or their deeds (other bibles render the same idea he will "judge all people" (NLT).

Jesus then goes on to promise

v 28: Some standing with him (Jesus) would not die before the would "see" - NOT the judgement of everyone (b) but only "Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (a). What he would do after he came (ie Judge all mankind) they were not promised to "see".

To illustrate: If a Father explains that the following week there will be a transmission of the Superbowl (sports event) followed by a movie. and then he promises his son he will be allowed to watch the sports event "the superbowl". Can the son complain that his father broke his promise to let him watch the late night movie that was AFTER the superbowl?

In a similar way, a careful reading of the text shows Jesus' disciples should not have expected to see anything more than what was promised ie "the son of man coming" and certainly there is no reason to conclude that Jesus promised first century disciples would see the final judgement of mankind.


JW

[Elijah John]

You seem to be missing the "repay everyone" phrase in verse 27. Jesus didn't "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners .

He didn't say he would repay everyone in the lifetime of his listeners.

MATTHEW 16: 27, 28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... w+16:27-28

In the above verses we see Jesus make a prediction (prophecy) in verse 27 and a promise (v 28). The prophecy has two features (a) and (b)...

v 27: (a) 'the son of man [coming]" followed by (b) reward for "each person" / "everyone" (JB) according or their deeds (other bibles render the same idea he will "judge all people" (NLT).

Jesus then goes on to promise

v 28: Some standing with him (Jesus) would not die before the would "see" - NOT the judgement of everyone (b) but only "Son of Man coming in his kingdom" (a). What he would do after he came (ie Judge all mankind) they were not promised to "see".

To illustrate: If a Father explains that the following week there will be a transmission of the Superbowl (sports event) followed by a movie. and then he promises his son he will be allowed to watch the sports event "the superbowl". Can the son complain that his father broke his promise to let him watch the late night movie that was AFTER the superbowl?

In a similar way, a careful reading of the text shows Jesus' disciples should not have expected to see anything more than what was promised ie "the son of man coming" and certainly there is no reason to conclude that Jesus promised first century disciples would see the final judgement of mankind.

JW

Both verses are contained in the same paragraph.Same paragraph, same subject.

Unless Jesus was unable to focus on one thing at a time, and was employing "stream of conciousness., flitting about from one topic to another. But I doubt Jesus had A.D.D, or anything like that.

Understand, that if you were able to convince me that Jesus or the Bible were not wrong about this, or if an Evangelical were about to convince me that Jesus is "God" or either of you about the reality of blood atonement, life would be a whole lot easier for me.

But so far I do not find your arguments convincing. Or others who make similar arguments.

So we are left with a "Messiah" who failed to usher in the Messianic age the first time around, and a "God" who was wrong about his "2nd time around".

I guess it is possible Jesus switched topics on a dime here, but given the context of the other verses indicating most of the NT writers expected Jesus return in their own lifetimes, I doubt it.

These are not just examples of failed expectations in isolation, they collectively constitute a pattern.