The Fate of Nonbelievers

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:01 pm

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

Benoni · Post by **Benoni** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:04 am

Checkpoint wrote:
Benoni wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
Benoni wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
Benoni wrote: [Replying to post 195 by Benoni]

Adam was God's son. God wanted him to go thought the process of tribulation, sin and death so in the end the overcomers will rule and reign with Christ. Without the fall of Adam we would be puppets.
That Adam fell shows he was never a puppet, just as he was never "pure spirit".

Man was made in God's image and likeness, and was thus given dominion over other created life.

At the same time, man was made male and female, which no "pure spirit" is.
So you are ignoring all the verses from when God created Adam to where God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.
I ignore no such verses, as your description does not convey what they say but what you read into them.
Than you tell us what they say and show me where I am wrong. All this is is hot air.
Been there, done that, as has myth-one.com.

That poster and I know what is hot air and who it comes from, because we know what scripture says about what we are debating.

No that is not true. You tried and you FAILED>

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:55 am

Benoni wrote:Children are immature goats ...

Perhaps that's why we call them "kids."

Onewithhim wrote:Myth, do you really think you're going to get anywhere with a person who is dedicated to believe that God created mankind to destroy it?

And Checkpoint wrote:That poster and I know what is hot air and who it comes from, because we know what scripture says about what we are debating.

Perhaps whoever you are referring to is a highly religious devotee of God who is "Posting in Tongues."

Ttruscott wrote:Sin did not cause the fall, the fall created sin.

Sin could not exist without at least one Law or command from God.

That created the possibility for man to sin.

Definition of Fall of man: Christian term used to describe the transition of the first man and woman from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience.

They went from obedience to disobedience with their first bite of the forbidden fruit.

They transitioned or fell from a state of innocence into a state of sin and disobedience with that first bite.

It occurred and cannot be taken back. So I would say that sin caused the "fall."

==================================================================

Now, it did greatly expand the possibilities for committing sins, because they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That is, the array of sins they could commit was greatly expanded from only the one, because they now had knowledge of more sins.
==================================================================

Benoni wrote:Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Of course there is. There are more unsaved than saved.

Commenting to OneWithHim, Benoni wrote:Your the one that believes God is going to put trillions of people he never called into a dust grave and that is it.

She's correct, but God is simply honoring their choice.

Benoni wrote:How is ALL being saved destroying mankind?

God will honor His New Testament Covenant with mankind.

Whosoever believeth in Jesus will be granted everlasting life.

Whosoever believeth not will be granted a quick and everlasting death.

That is the best possible solution. Everyone is granted their individual choices. They will make their choice after the plan is clearly explained to them and after experiencing a test period of life.

"You just experienced a short period of physical life. Would you like to live for ever and ever but without pain, hunger, sickness, etc., under the guidance of the Lord Jesus Christ? Yes or no?"

I could not design it any better.

Can any of you?

Benoni · Post by **Benoni** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:15 pm

myth-one.com wrote:
Benoni wrote:Children are immature goats ...
Perhaps that's why we call them "kids."

Onewithhim wrote:Myth, do you really think you're going to get anywhere with a person who is dedicated to believe that God created mankind to destroy it?

And Checkpoint wrote:That poster and I know what is hot air and who it comes from, because we know what scripture says about what we are debating.
Perhaps whoever you are referring to is a highly religious devotee of God who is "Posting in Tongues."

Ttruscott wrote:Sin did not cause the fall, the fall created sin.
Sin could not exist without at least one Law or command from God.

That created the possibility for man to sin.

Definition of Fall of man: Christian term used to describe the transition of the first man and woman from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience.

They went from obedience to disobedience with their first bite of the forbidden fruit.

They transitioned or fell from a state of innocence into a state of sin and disobedience with that first bite.

It occurred and cannot be taken back. So I would say that sin caused the "fall."

==================================================================

Now, it did greatly expand the possibilities for committing sins, because they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That is, the array of sins they could commit was greatly expanded from only the one, because they now had knowledge of more sins.
==================================================================

Benoni wrote:Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Of course there is. There are more unsaved than saved.

Commenting to OneWithHim, Benoni wrote:Your the one that believes God is going to put trillions of people he never called into a dust grave and that is it.
She's correct, but God is simply honoring their choice.

Benoni wrote:How is ALL being saved destroying mankind?
God will honor His New Testament Covenant with mankind.

Whosoever believeth in Jesus will be granted everlasting life.

Whosoever believeth not will be granted a quick and everlasting death.

That is the best possible solution. Everyone is granted their individual choices. They will make their choice after the plan is clearly explained to them and after experiencing a test period of life.

"You just experienced a short period of physical life. Would you like to live for ever and ever but without pain, hunger, sickness, etc., under the guidance of the Lord Jesus Christ? Yes or no?"

I could not design it any better.

Can any of you?

You can say choice.. choice choice for the rest of your life but it is not scriptural when it comes to salvation or Adam's sin except in your assumption.

When it comes to the loss there are many verses declaring all will be saved so you can cherry pick all you want . I am sure it is really easy for you to ignore the following verses and there are plenty more

Salvation for All

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouthâ€™s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

Hab 2:13-14
13 Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?
14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (KJV)

1 Peter 3:18-20
Weymouthâ€™s
Christ also once and for all died for the sins, the innocent ones and for the guilty many, in order to bring us to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but was made live in the spirit, in which he also went and proclaim His message to the Spirits in prison, who in ancient times had been disobedient, while Godâ€™s long suffering was patiently waiting in the days of Noal during the building of the Ark, in which a few persons â€“ eight in number were brought safely though the water.

.

Rom 11:32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Luke 3:6: And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Jer.31 â€œThe time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD .
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD . "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

John 6:45 It is written in [the book of] the Prophets, and they shall all be taught of God [have Him in person for their Teacher]. Everyone who has listened to and learned from the Father comes to Me--

PS 139;8B If I make my bed in hell, behold thou art there.

Ps 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations. (KJV)

1 Corin 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Note this says the world not just those in Christ.

Reconcile: 2643 katallage (kat-al-lag-ay');from 2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor: KJV-- atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

1 Corin 5: 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Imputing: 3049 logizomai 3056; to take an inventory, i.e. estimate (literally or figuratively): KJV-- conclude, (ac-) count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

Romans 8:18-25 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Luke 3: 6 (Amp)
And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand
and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God
(the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

Luke 3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Rom 11:26:
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Rom 11:32:
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Num 14:21
But indeed as I live all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.

Hab 2:13-14
13 Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?
14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (KJV)

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouthâ€™s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

Acts 15:14
Declares that he will return again and restore the Tabernacle of David and then he will save the remainder of mankind

Corin 15: 21:
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:12 pm

Benoni wrote:You can say choice.. choice choice for the rest of your life but it is not scriptural when it comes to salvation or Adam's sin except in your assumption.

Here's one from the scriptures:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Benoni wrote:When it comes to the loss there are many verses declaring all will be saved so you can cherry pick all you want . I am sure it is really easy for you to ignore the following verses and there are plenty more

Salvation for All

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

That verse states that all will be resurrected, not saved! Christians will be resurrected first at the Second Coming unto everlasting life, and nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years later:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Benoni · Post by **Benoni** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:29 pm

myth-one.com wrote:
Benoni wrote:You can say choice.. choice choice for the rest of your life but it is not scriptural when it comes to salvation or Adam's sin except in your assumption.
Here's one from the scriptures:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)
What does this have to do with what we are addressing? This verse has nothing to do with Adam's so called choice or even salvation. Jesus had not even been born yet and you are somehow trying to connect this verse to what I just stated? Sure we can choose a red car over a blue car or a Toyota or a Chevy. But Adam had no choice and neither do we when it comes to salvation. We are saved by grace not carnal man freely choosing.

Benoni wrote:When it comes to the loss there are many verses declaring all will be saved so you can cherry pick all you want . I am sure it is really easy for you to ignore the following verses and there are plenty more

Salvation for All

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

That verse states that all will be resurrected, not saved! Christians will be resurrected first at the Second Coming unto everlasting life, and nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years later:
Again you are adding to scripture like the word choice. No where in the Bible is there any mention of a second coming.

The word resurrect means to rise and salvation means to be saved set free.... Same thing.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)
But anyways, here is a "verse" you quoted several times, although you can't or won't reveal the source:

The Bible.

Romans 8 Benoni Version wrote:20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned

21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"
What is the source of that statement?

I cannot find that statement in any of the 56 different translations of the scriptures on https://www.biblegateway.com/.

Would it matter? Don't forget Ps 90 1-3

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

MSG) 8-21 That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Please direct me to your source on that statement?
You have it now and I have posted in the pass.

Now that you are sooooo critical with these verses I posted would you please post the verse that declares Adam had a choice? See this verse declares he had no choice. I think that is fair.

Benoni · Post by **Benoni** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:31 pm

[Replying to post 220 by myth-one.com]

I see you totally ignored all the verses that declare the salvation for all people. We need to look at all of God's Word not just cherry pick.

myth-one.com · Post by **myth-one.com** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:35 pm

Benoni wrote:[Replying to post 220 by myth-one.com]

I see you totally ignored all the verses that declare the salvation for all people. We need to look at all of God's Word not just cherry pick.

That isn't true. I looked at the first verse you provided as proof that all will be saved:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die.
Every human who ever died, shall be resurrected or made alive again.
But there will be an order to the resurrections.
Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected.
The group that will be resurrected next are all dead Christians, they that are Christ's, which will be resurrected at His coming.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Revelation 20:4).

Do you agree?

Yes or no.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:29 pm

Romans 8 some unknown version wrote: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned

21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have"

...a far cry from the ordinary pov as expressed in the

Pulpit Commentary wrote: Rom 8:20 For the creature (or, creation, as before) was subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who subjected it in hope. 21 Because (or, that; i.e. in hope that) the creature (or, creation) also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.

The aorist á½‘Ï€ÎµÏ„á½±Î³Î· ("was subjected") seems to imply that the present "vanity" and "bondage of corruption" were not inherent in the original Creation, or of necessity to last for ever. Thus the assertions of Genesis 1: and 31, stand unshaken, viz. that in the beginning God created all things, and that all at first was "very good." The ideas, resorted to in order to account for existing evil, of matter (á½•Î»Î·) being essentially evil, and of a Î´Î·Î¼Î¹Î¿Ï…Ï�Î³á½¹Ï‚, other than the Supreme God, having made the world, are alike precluded.

Every person created in HIS image was created perfectly able to choose to be holy or eternally evil and this was very good. Then the Satanic rebellion and the fall...

This corresponds to the sinful elect being forced to live with the tares in a life of suffering in vain emptiness by GOD's decree that this was HIS methodology for bringing the sinful but good seed to repentance and an understanding of the necessity of the judgement against the tares which had been postponed.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:54 pm

myth-one.com wrote: Ttruscott wrote:
Sin did not cause the fall, the fall created sin.

Sin could not exist without at least one Law or command from God.

That created the possibility for man to sin.

Amen. Before the fall there was no evil in existence.

We were created with the ability to make true free will choices (no coercion, no constraint) to become perfectly holy or perfectly evil or somewhere in between. Before Satan chose to reject YHWH's claims of Deity as the evil lies of a megalomaniac, there was no sin in creation. His 'fall', his choice to rebel instead of to bow, caused the first sin...being allowed to make that choice did not cause the sin because everyone had that ability and allowance and so very few chose to sin in the least.

Benoni · Post by **Benoni** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:33 pm

myth-one.com wrote:
Benoni wrote:[Replying to post 220 by myth-one.com]

I see you totally ignored all the verses that declare the salvation for all people. We need to look at all of God's Word not just cherry pick.
That isn't true. I looked at the first verse you provided as proof that all will be saved:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die.

Every human who ever died, shall be resurrected or made alive again.

But there will be an order to the resurrections.

Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected.

The group that will be resurrected next are all dead Christians, they that are Christ's, which will be resurrected at His coming.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Revelation 20:4).

Do you agree?

Yes or no.

Much what you believe is symbolic in meaning and goes far deeper than these few lines.

What are the dead? Physical dead or spiritual dead?
There are many returns of the Lord which one are you speaking of?

Than the order of things "But every man in his own order" This could take many ages