The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #2]
Tam, based on what I have read from your posts, your intention is to criticize Witnesses for our beliefs and its effects in our community, based on the fact that we have misunderstood some biblical issue in the past.

This is incorrect.

My intention is to bear witness to Christ (the Truth). This can certainly include discussing various doctrines and the verses being used or misused to support those doctrines.

(...)

As you said before "That is just a claim (others make the same claim). "

Of course it is a claim (though I think it has been demonstrated on this forum these past many years). It is my claim about my intentions. In rebuttal to your claim about my intentions.

Since you have no intention of talking about the 144000 issue so that you can demonstrate what concerns the topic here, that we are wrong about it ... I have nothing more to add.

Here you go trying to tell me about my intentions again. Yet I HAVE tried talking about the 144 000 issue, even in the past two responses with you. I even gave you the exact posts and a quote from one of them as to why the 144 000 doctrine of the jws, is/must be wrong. Yet you did not address it. Perhaps you cannot see it. I don't know. It boggles the mind.


Regardless, it is there for anyone else reading.

May you have the peace that you wish for me.

Thank you, and peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #384]

The house of Israel remains scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:19) and was never released from Babylon.

So Ezra 1:1-3 is a lie?
Who left "In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia."? Why is Jehovah called the God of Israel and not the God of Judah?

Why is Ezra chapter 2 describe those leaving Babylon and settling in cities as Israelites? (Ezra 2:70)

You still have not answered the question of when the exiles left Babylon.
What year were the exiles released from Babylon?

[JehovahsWitness]

To be fair, the reason Jesus only invited members of the new convenant to eat and drink the memorial bread and wine is related to the 144,000. As has been explained many times, Jesus thus instructed because only those under that convenant arrangement were authorised by holy spirit to do so.



JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....


MEMORIAL EMBLEMS, HEAVEN and ...THE RANSOM

[Eloi]

[Replying to tam in post #5]
You go from a 144,000 point to accusing Jehovah's Witnesses of disobeying Jesus Christ. If you do not belong to any religion YOU disobey Jesus Christ ... but I am not interested in talking about that because it is not the subject here.

Jesus NEVER said that all his followers should partake of the bread and wine. He only made a covenant with his apostles, and that covenant would be transferred to others who would belong to the same anointed group, NOT to everyone who followed later.

Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.
... 22:28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

People who do not belong to that covenant MUST NOT participate of the emblems, although obviously, that does not mean that they do not benefit from the sacrifice of Jesus.

An example that helps to understand is what happened in Jehovah's temple in Jerusalem when certain special sacrifices were made. Of some of them, ONLY Aaron's descendants could eat and absolutely no one else. If an Israelite child wanted to eat from those parts, the father explained that this part was not for him, and he had to learn to respect what was established.

Since most religions mistakenly tell believers that all good people go to heaven, it would appear that all of them are members of that covenant ... As we learn from Jesus, earth will be home to the vast majority of faithful Christians (Matt. 5:5).

Do you know what for that "little flock" that is in that pact goes to heaven?

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #384]

The house of Israel remains scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:19) and was never released from Babylon.

So Ezra 1:1-3 is a lie?
Who left "In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia."? Who was to "rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel"? No one? Why is Jehovah still being called the God of Israel?

The "God of Israel" is the God of Jacob, who was called "Israel", and whose whole house of Israel was divided into two houses, the house of Judah and the house of Israel. The whole house of Israel will be rebuilt according to Ezekiel 37 when the sticks of Judah and Ephraim/Israel, will be untied under the "My servant David". That has not happened, and the two houses remain separate. The house of Israel remains scattered among the nations, and Judah and Jerusalem have been revived in 1948 (Joel 3:1) by way of Rome/iron, in the form of Germany, and the clay, in the form of the Ottomans being defeated by Great Britain at the battle of Megiddo (Har-Magedon), and later in the 2nd WW, whereas the U.S. and Britain crushed the Germans/Iron and Italians. Later the Jews/Judah crushed the Russians/iron, and the Muslims/clay in the 1967 & 73 Israeli wars, setting up for all the nations (Joe 3:2) to eventually attach Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), and be crushed. It will be after that, that the gold and silver will be transferred to Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:14), as well as the lost tribes of Israel (Ezekiel 36), as was done during the period of Israel being recovered from among the nations in the form of the escape from Egypt.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #384]

The house of Israel remains scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:19) and was never released from Babylon.

So Ezra 1:1-3 is a lie?
Who left "In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia."? Who was to "rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel"? No one? Why is Jehovah still being called the God of Israel?

The "God of Israel" is the God of Jacob, who was called "Israel", and whose whole house of Israel was divided into two houses, the house of Judah and the house of Israel. The whole house of Israel will be rebuilt according to Ezekiel 37 when the sticks of Judah and Ephraim/Israel, will be untied under the "My servant David". That has not happened, and the two houses remain separate. The house of Israel remains scattered among the nations, and Judah and Jerusalem have been revived in 1948 (Joel 3:1) by way of Rome/iron, in the form of Germany, and the clay, in the form of the Ottomans being defeated by Great Britain at the battle of Megiddo (Har-Magedon), and later in the 2nd WW, whereas the U.S. and Britain crushed the Germans/Iron and Italians. Later the Jews/Judah crushed the Russians/iron, and the Muslims/clay in the 1967 & 73 Israeli wars, setting up for all the nations (Joe 3:2) to eventually attach Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), and be crushed. It will be after that, that the gold and silver will be transferred to Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:14), as well as the lost tribes of Israel (Ezekiel 36), as was done during the period of Israel being recovered from among the nations in the form of the escape from Egypt.

Why does Ezra chapter 2 describe those leaving Babylon and settling in cities as all Israel? (Ezra 2:70)

You still have not answered the question of when the exiles left Babylon.
What year were the exiles released from Babylon?
You're still punching that strawman I see.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #5]
You go from a 144,000 point

A point that keeps getting ignored.

to accusing Jehovah's Witnesses of disobeying Jesus Christ.

I believe I accused the jw religion of teaching her members to disobey Christ. Christ commanded His apostles to eat and drink (the bread and wine that mean His body and blood), and that they were to teach all the disciples to obey everything He commanded them(the apostles). The WTS commands something different, which should really be a big red flag that this is something the WTS has misunderstood (like other things they have misunderstood). No religious doctrine can be true if it teaches people to disobey Christ.

Christ never once taught that there were two classes of Christians (earthly hope versus heavenly hope). Christ never taught that some Christians should partake and others were not permitted. As stated already, He said the opposite (that anyone may eat, and that unless one eats His flesh and drinks His blood, one has no life in them). Christ never taught that only some Christians were His brothers, His Bride, His Church, His Body... and the rest were not.

The apostles never taught any of those things either.


These are the interpretations of a religion almost two thousand years later, a religion that does indeed get things wrong, as everyone here knows.

If you do not belong to any religion YOU disobey Jesus Christ ... but I am not interested in talking about that because it is not the subject here.

Please show me where Christ said 'you must belong to a religion.'

Jesus NEVER said that all his followers should partake of the bread and wine.

He did in fact.

"... But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”


While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matt 26:26-28


And,

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

One thing that He commanded His apostles was to eat and to drink the bread and the wine that mean His body and His blood. He also said earlier that anyone may eat, and that unless one does eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood (which are real food and real drink), that one has no life in them.

Do you know what that "little flock" that is in that pact to heaven goes to?

"Little flock" does not refer to the 144000; Christ is speaking to a little flock that He has called at that time (those He is speaking to from among the Jews); other sheep simply refers to other people who have not yet been called. It does not refer to people of a different hope (earthly versus heavenly).

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

You see that? One flock. Not one 'little flock' and another group of 'other sheep'.

They shall be ONE flock.

One flock, One hope.



There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

I believe I accused the jw religion of teaching her members to disobey Christ. ....

Emphasis MINE

You accuse Jehovahs Witnesses of {quote} "teaching her members to disobey Christ" Please provide the reference or a referenced quotation from our official website and the command you believe we teach should be {quote} disobeyed.

Christ commanded His apostles to eat and drink (the bread and wine that mean His body and blood), and that they were to teach all the disciples to obey everything He commanded them(the apostles). The WTS commands something different ....[/color]

Are you suggesting Jehovahs Witnesses command [Christ's] apostles NOT to eat and drink ([/color]the bread and wine that mean His body and blood?



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Eloi]

[Replying to tam in post #4]
I see you do not know what that "little flock" is going to do on heaven. We could teach you a couple of things, so after you are a student, maybe you will know like to be a teacher of something.

I will teach you: that little flock with which Jesus made a covenant (as you read before in the biblical text I quoted) will go to heaven to serve as priests with Jesus, the High Priest, and they will be kings with him, as you can learn from the biblical quotes I showed you before. In Revelation you can read about the same group, but at that point you can see the total amount that this small group of kings and priests reaches. PRIESTS, do you remember the example I mentioned you about the priests in Jerusalem temple?

Let's read more from the Scriptures about them:

Rev. 1:5 (...) To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
... 5:8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Did you notice over who are going to reign those who are part of the small group that goes to heaven?

Perhaps now you understand why the Bible never spoke of heaven to any ancient servant of God:

Psal. 37: 9 For evil men will be done away with,
But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.
10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
11 But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Not all Christians are going to live on heaven, simply because if everyone were to be kings they would not have anyone on earth to rule over ... And that doesn't seem very logical, does it?

PD: Jehovah's Witnesses offer free Bible courses to those who are interested. No one have to pay anything to learn these biblical truths.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I believe I accused the jw religion of teaching her members to disobey Christ. ....

You accuse Jehovahs Witnesses of {quote} "teaching her members to disobey Christ" Please provide the reference or a referenced quotation from our official website and the command you believe we teach should be {quote} disobeyed.

The WTS does not come out and say 'disobey Christ', no more than the RCC would come out and say 'disobey Christ'. I am sure we both know that there are ways to get people to disobey Christ and God, without coming out and saying so in those words.

But the command from Christ (which is part of the 'everything' in Matt 28:20) is to eat and drink. The WTS teaches the majority of her members that they must not eat or drink.

[/color]

Christ commanded His apostles to eat and drink (the bread and wine that mean His body and blood), and that they were to teach all the disciples to obey everything He commanded them(the apostles). The WTS commands something different ....[/color]

Are you suggesting Jehovahs Witnesses command Christ Apostles NOT to eat and drink bread and wine that mean His body and blood? [/color]

Does that really even need a response?



Peace again to you.