The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[Eloi]

[Replying to tam in post #2]
I do not see how JW misrepresent your point. You are trying to accuse JWs of something because we understood wrongly some things in the past, and JW is telling you that you do not have any accusation to do, based on the reality.

You are creating a fictional reality where a group of humans can understand everything that is written in the Bible without ever being wrong. That group DOES NOT EXIST and never existed. The servants of God at no time have fully understood biblical truth (I don't think you have that super power either) but in each historical moment the truth has been dosed as God understands that it is the time to make revelations on certain points. .. If there is a people that understands the Scriptures to the greatest degree possible, which is all that can be reached, that community is the international association of Jehovah's Witnesses, as any investigator on the matter can verify ... and it is not under discussion. This is what you do not understand.

Even Jesus in heaven continues to learn from God.

John 5:19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #333]
Paul Was a false prophet, eh? Do you reject the book of Acts that shows Paul to be hand-picked by Jesus?

When he said "we will not all sleep," he was referring to the last days when there will be some anointed (those going to heaven) still alive and on Earth before the Great Tribulation breaks out. When he said "as in Adam all die" he was speaking of the condition of all mankind.....because Adam sinned he passed along sin and death to all his progeny.
.

Paul believed that "we shall not all sleep/die", with respect to the crowd he was speaking too. As for the "end of the age", it is the "tares", the lawless, which will be gathered out "first" and burnt, and then the wheat will be put into the barn (Matthew 13:30). Your rapture theory was promulgated around the 17th century in England. The appearance of the son of man, follows immediately after the "tribulation" (Matthew 24:29).

Paul was speaking of the last days. And JWs don't subscribe to the Rapture theory that was promulgated around the 17th century. Please pay closer attention to what we say.

.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

BTW in answer to your question, "As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?"

Do any of those calendars calculate the Earth going around the sun more than once a year? Or two or more years equaling one year? If not, then the type of calendar doesn't matter in order to count the years.

The Roman emperor Julius Caesar set up a solar calendar year, whereas the Jews had a lunar year, which depends on the cycle of the moon. One is based on the sun, and one is based on the moon. Two different types of years.

The type of calendar doesn't matter. Both only count one year at a time. A person can use a Jewish calendar if they wish. The prophecy is counting the years from the destruction of Jerusalem from the Bible. Count the calendar years from that date using whatever calendar you wish.

I think the general consensus is that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 BC and not the JW's 607 BC,

Then the Bible is wrong about the 70 years of capture of the Isrealites in Babylon. If you trust the 'general consensus' of the secular historians then the Jews where only in captivity for 40 years.
So which do you believe? Were the Israelites in Babylon for 70 years as the Bible says or not. Because both the Bible and secular historians agree that the Israelites were released in 537 BCE. So you're going to have to pick you think is right about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Bible or your historians.

The house of Israel was conquered by Assyria around 750 BC and scattered among the nations. As for Judah, the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem was around 586 BC, and the Temple dedication was around 516 BC. 586-516 is 70 years. There were several deportations of the Jews over a span of years. The pivotal point is the destruction of the Temple and the dedication of the new Temple. The interval of years depends on one's perspective. Choose whatever years you prefer, but Daniel 9 is about "anointing the most holy place". (Daniel 9:24)

We are not talking about the Assyrians. We are talking about the year of release of Israel from Babylon. What year was that?

The house of Israel was captured in around 750 BC.

That is not the answer to my question. Look closely and perhaps try again to answer the question I asked. Because right now your presenting a strawman argument by giving responses to questions I didn't ask.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Israel was never captured by Nebuchadnezzar.

During their capture and after their release there was no separation of Israel and Judah. Two sticks had become one again and they were never referred to as two nations again after Israel's release from Babylon. From that point on they were referred to as Israel. Please read Ezekiel chapter 37.

You keep focusing on what you want to focus on, but will not focus on what I'm asking. Their capture is of no interest to my question. One more time, I'm going to ask you the question: What year was Israel released from Babylon?

Answer it or I will view another strawman answer as you conceding your argument.

[2ndpillar2]

The Roman emperor Julius Caesar set up a solar calendar year, whereas the Jews had a lunar year, which depends on the cycle of the moon. One is based on the sun, and one is based on the moon. Two different types of years.

The type of calendar doesn't matter. Both only count one year at a time. A person can use a Jewish calendar if they wish. The prophecy is counting the years from the destruction of Jerusalem from the Bible. Count the calendar years from that date using whatever calendar you wish.

I think the general consensus is that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 BC and not the JW's 607 BC,

Then the Bible is wrong about the 70 years of capture of the Isrealites in Babylon. If you trust the 'general consensus' of the secular historians then the Jews where only in captivity for 40 years.
So which do you believe? Were the Israelites in Babylon for 70 years as the Bible says or not. Because both the Bible and secular historians agree that the Israelites were released in 537 BCE. So you're going to have to pick you think is right about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Bible or your historians.

The house of Israel was conquered by Assyria around 750 BC and scattered among the nations. As for Judah, the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem was around 586 BC, and the Temple dedication was around 516 BC. 586-516 is 70 years. There were several deportations of the Jews over a span of years. The pivotal point is the destruction of the Temple and the dedication of the new Temple. The interval of years depends on one's perspective. Choose whatever years you prefer, but Daniel 9 is about "anointing the most holy place". (Daniel 9:24)

We are not talking about the Assyrians. We are talking about the year of release of Israel from Babylon. What year was that?

The house of Israel was captured in around 750 BC.

That is not the answer to my question. Look closely and perhaps try again to answer the question I asked. Because right now your presenting a strawman argument by giving responses to questions I didn't ask.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Israel was never captured by Nebuchadnezzar.

During their capture and after their release there was no separation of Israel and Judah. Two sticks had become one again and they were never referred to as two nations again after Israel's release from Babylon. From that point on they were referred to as Israel. Please read Ezekiel chapter 37.

You keep focusing on what you want to focus on, but will not focus on what I'm asking. Their capture is of no interest to my question. One more time, I'm going to ask you the question: What year was Israel released from Babylon?

Answer it or I will view another strawman answer as you conceding your argument.

Ezekiel 37 refers to the combining of Ephraim/Israel with Judah, and they would be under the rule of "David My servant" on the "land that I gave to Jacob", and that they would "keep my statutes and observe them", and "all the nations/gentiles would know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel". That is not in place, and the only thing in place is that Judah and Jerusalem have been restored as of 1948 (Joel 3:1), whereas now the nations can be gathered and judged (Joel 3:2), as in Har-Magedon, after which the house of Israel will be gathered from among the nations, given a new heart and spirit, and settled on the land of their fathers. And certainly, all the nations do not know that "I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel. Ephraim/Israel, the lost 10 tribes have not been gathered from the nations, such as previously with Egypt, and joined with Judah, with both living on the land given to their fathers under "My servant David, and both "careful to observe My statutes" (Ezekiel 36). You might want to read the Scriptures you refer too before making your arguments. As for the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", when "My law is put within them (Jeremiah 31:33-34), "they shall not teach again each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for they shall all know Me, and I will forgive their iniquity. And the "city will be rebuilt"... and "it shall not be plucked up or overthrown any more forever". (Jeremiah 31:38-40). None of that has happened as of today at 10:38 A.M. Judah and Ephraim are still under judgment (Hosea 5 & 6), and only after they "acknowledge their guilt", after two days (2000 years), "on the the third day", will they be revived (Hosea 6:2). 1948 is after 2 days (2000 years), and Judah has yet to acknowledge their guilt, nor has Ephraim. Judah's, the Jews, judgment was still evident during the 2nd World War, when 6 million of them were killed under horns of the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17:11). The house of Israel remains scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 36:19) and was never released from Babylon. I would suggest paying a little more attention to what Scripture actually states, and less time on your JW tracts.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #2]
I do not see how JW misrepresent your point.

Really? Because post 377 pretty clearly shows that jw misrepresented my point. I pointed out exactly where and how that was being done.

You are creating a fictional reality where a group of humans can understand everything that is written in the Bible without ever being wrong.

See, you're doing the same thing now in creating a strawman of what I actually said (see post 377 again as a summary of my actual point).

That group DOES NOT EXIST and never existed.

No one ever claimed it did.

If there is a people that understands the Scriptures to the greatest degree possible, which is all that can be reached, that community is the international association of Jehovah's Witnesses, as any investigator on the matter can verify ... and it is not under discussion.

All this sounds like is a boastful and unsupported claim. Obviously many investigators have and do disagree. If you want to claim you are better at understanding than any other religious group out there... well, maybe you are and maybe you aren't. But that isn't saying much, since all religions contain falsehood. Some truth, some falsehood. They are all the same in that regard, including your own. None of them are the Truth. The JW religion even teaches people to refuse the bread and wine that mean the body and blood of Christ (even though He said ANYONE may eat... John 6:50, 51), thereby teaching people NOT to obey all that Christ commands.

The only one who has no falsehood in Him is Christ. He is the One who opens the scriptures so that a person can understand. He is the One who is the Truth. He is the One to whom God told us to listen. He is the One who teaches and leads His sheep into all truth (no falsehood). He is the One to whom we - if indeed we are His disciples - are supposed to be bearing witness.


So why listen to a religion over and above Him when we all know for a FACT that all religions teach error?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Eloi]

We, Jehovah's Witnesses do not expect the world to accept us. The things we do we do for Jehovah, and we try to help our neighbor so that he can worship God with us, so that they also inherit the promises. Expecting that no person criticizes us for something (that even for wearing ties they criticize us) would be unrealistic, especially since that situation has NEITHER occurred nor will it occur in this world that the enemy of God controls ... while it lasts. They criticized Jesus and his disciples, and even some who were among the Christians criticized and disrespected men chosen by God, such as Paul.

As I said before, there is no person or religious institution, or small group that knows all the biblical answers to all the questions that people can think of. When someone criticizes another for things like these that I mention, he forgets that he himself has no right to criticize anything. Jehovah's Witnesses are led by God, and the proof of that is that no religious organization has achieved what we as an international community have achieved in our service to Jehovah God. We have his blessing, we know it, we experience it, and we are not affected at all by the criticisms of those who reject us.

PS: Shouldn't the Biblical topic of the 144,000 be the issue in this thread?

[tam]

Peace to you,

We, Jehovah's Witnesses do not expect the world to accept us. The things we do we do for Jehovah, and we try to help our neighbor so that he can worship God with us, so that they also inherit the promises. Expecting that no person criticizes us for something (that even for wearing ties they criticize us) would be unrealistic, especially since that situation has NEITHER occurred nor will it occur in this world that the enemy of God controls ... while it lasts. They criticized Jesus and his disciples, and even some who were among the Christians criticized and disrespected men chosen by God, such as Paul.

Eloi, what does this have to do with anything I posted to you?

As I said before, there is no person or religious institution, or small group that knows all the biblical answers to all the questions that people can think of. When someone criticizes another for things like these that I mention, he forgets that he himself has no right to criticize anything.

Again, this has nothing to do with what I said.

Jehovah's Witnesses are led by God, and the proof of that is that no religious organization has achieved what we as an international community have achieved in our service to Jehovah God.

That is just a claim (others make the same claim).

We have his blessing, we know it, we experience it, and we are not affected at all by the criticisms of those who reject us.

A catholic could say the exact same thing that you are saying, regarding the criticism that jws level at the RCC.

PS: Shouldn't the Biblical topic of the 144,000 be the issue in this thread?

Yes, and my very first post was at 343, in response to something others had said. The subject of partaking of the bread and wine that means the body and blood of Christ is also on topic with the jw doctrine about the 144 000.



Peace again to you.

[Eloi]

[Replying to tam in post #2]
Tam, based on what I have read from your posts, your intention is to criticize Witnesses for our beliefs and its effects in our community, based on the fact that we have misunderstood some biblical issue in the past. That is no reason to criticize anyone. What you consider false expectations based on misunderstanding is much worse in religious non-witnesses. Focus on the issue at hand here, and if you think we are wrong on the 144,000 issue, let's talk about it.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #2]
Tam, based on what I have read from your posts, your intention is to criticize Witnesses for our beliefs and its effects in our community, based on the fact that we have misunderstood some biblical issue in the past.

This is incorrect.

My intention is to bear witness to Christ (the Truth). This can certainly include discussing various doctrines and the verses being used or misused to support those doctrines.

I commented in this thread at post 343, regarding 'the times of the gentiles', which one of your fellow members took issue with (not with the content of the post, since that was ignored, but with me and my faith). From there another of your fellow members misrepresented my point, when I questioned who jws got their false expectations from. Again, no one addressed the content of post 343.

That is no reason to criticize anyone. What you consider false expectations based on misunderstanding is much worse in religious non-witnesses.

I'm not sure why you say, 'what I consider false expectations', when JW is the one who mentioned that jws had false expectations.

Focus on the issue at hand here, and if you think we are wrong on the 144,000 issue, let's talk about it.

I have been trying.


Peace again to you.


Edited to add:

In addition to post 343, this is from post 379:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (as a side note: the second part of that command states that the apostles were to teach all those disciples being baptized, to obey everything that Christ had commanded them, the apostles. Eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ is one such command, but the WTS teaches people NOT to do this. Something that goes directly to the topic of the 144 000. If a doctrine teaches people to disobey the commands of Christ, that doctrine MUST be false.)


Peace again.

[Eloi]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #2]
Tam, based on what I have read from your posts, your intention is to criticize Witnesses for our beliefs and its effects in our community, based on the fact that we have misunderstood some biblical issue in the past.

This is incorrect.

My intention is to bear witness to Christ (the Truth). This can certainly include discussing various doctrines and the verses being used or misused to support those doctrines.

(...)

As you said before "That is just a claim (others make the same claim). "

Since you have no intention of talking about the 144000 issue so that you can demonstrate what concerns the topic here, that we are wrong about it ... I have nothing more to add.

May you have the peace that you wish for me.